autotelic   |2009-08-05 15:03:19 i wonder who said that we aren't the most unfortunate animals in the poll? Either someone that has completely burned out ego, or is still desperately clutching to keep it alive.

LostInSpace  - 1982   |2009-09-04 03:32:49 1982. That's the year Olivia Newton John wanted us to get Physical , the Go Go's sang 'Our Lips Are Sealed' and Melissa Manchester confided a little bit more realistically 'You Should Hear How She Talks About You? ' And what the fuck happened to 1984?

Anonymous   |2009-09-04 03:45:13 Let's Pretend We're Bunny Rabbits

autotelic   |2009-09-04 03:48:30 My ex loved the 80's because "nothing about it was meant to be ironic".

Frank   |2009-09-04 05:35:36 The 80's generation fucking parodied themselves and just missed out on streaming porn.

sarah   |2009-09-04 06:00:54 well yeah, the 80's generation parodied themselves, but I don't think it was supposed to be a joke was it? Isn't it only in retrospect that it all seems so cheesy?

ThriftstoreWorker  - Looking back over my shoulder   |2009-09-04 06:12:56 For me the early 80's were a time of great promise , the future never looked so bright. We were encouraged to believe we could have it all as Ronald Reagan championed freedom and our right as individuals to pursue happiness above all else. In 1987 the promise soured with my first major bout of depression after realizing that the Evil Empire was us. I still love a lot of those 80's tunes though.

autotelic   |2009-09-04 06:17:16 I'm still kind of angry about getting dumped. I don't like how this whole situation unfolded. I remember so well how he said, "I don't want you to be the transitional woman. I don't want to do friends with benefits. I want you to be my girlfriend." And then when he suddenly broke up with me I told him that I felt hoodwinked and double crossed, he responded by saying, "part of OCD is chronic slowness, I probably don't process reality as quickly as I should." But, I'm also reading a book that says often the person doing the dumping senses that the person getting dumped really wants to get dumped. Is it just the sex we miss when it's over? (the sex with the pseudo-emotional bonding that takes place)

autotelic   |2009-09-04 06:26:09 I MISS THE SEX! (and the power smoothies that he used to make me in the morning)

autotelic   |2009-09-04 06:30:49 SO do i really have to meet someone that's doing the 12 steps next time around? It's not too late for me to back out of that plan is it?

Angie   |2009-09-04 06:37:56 It was a weird fucking period, it was fun but in retrospect I see that the prevailing message of that decade was you were what you wore or owned. The guys I knew back then were really fucking cheesy but it was definitely an era in which girls just wanted to have fun.I know I did.

MarinCountyHealer  - endings   |2009-09-04 07:25:57 Autotelic I imagine your ex was very much aware that you were not the one from very early on. From your comments about him , well, he just seems too self focussed and calculating to be seriously caught off guard in the way he suggested to you that he was. Of course you miss the sexual intimacy, why wouldn't you, you're only human, but I think you also need to realize that your ex probably didnt just prepare power smoothies in the mornings but also suppressed calculatedly powering down the relationship as he made them from very early on and probably left you when he felt you had given him the moral highground to terminate the affair. Did he make his ex power smoothies? You know there is this perverse emotional law that we often become the last person we were with.

MarinCountyHealer  - listening   |2009-09-04 07:19:37 I mean with the dismissive ' it happens to couples every day' quote .I suspect your ex knew the chemistry wasnt right but waited until he knew it wasnt bearable and for the moment when he felt strong enough to painlessly reel those lines off coldly like a pro and that they rang with a pleasing finality for him.Your ex has married and separated twice , he's no novice at the art of jettisoning unwanted baggage. I know it hurts but he's stolen the closing act and abandoned the stage. Similarly we can also seek to love with an intensity that isnt sustainable. That's a beautiful but existentially flawed borderline trait. .

Angie  - boardroom smoothies   |2009-09-04 15:17:51 Wonder if there's a market for power smoothies in my line of work as - some days anyway - I have a discerning corporate clientelle. Do you have a recipe and are you sure your current pangs aren't simply vitamin deficiency? Fuck it, you still seem to have a lot of feelings for this guy...sister are you till in love????

ThePleasantVlleKid  - time machine   |2009-09-04 15:26:36 The Power Smoothie is very 1982. My mom and dad hadn't even met back then. I've given up on them getting back together, when my mom dropped the stalking charges and lifted the restraining order against my dad I thought there was a possibility of reconciliation but I think any reunion now is going to be restricted to their next lives. I wish they could just be friends.

autotelic   |2009-09-04 15:32:37 actually, I think he was blinded by passion, once he even said, "I never kissed any of my wives like this". but if he knew from very early on that I wasn't the one, why would he email all his relatives pics of us? We just moved too fast, you know as well as I do that borderlines are so incredibly charming in the beginning, because we're so hungry to express those needs that were never met in the developmental years. Anyway, when he first dumped me, I posted an ad on craigslist under the 'strictly platonic' section with the title 'I Just Got Dumped', and then in my shock, I spent the next 48 hours conversing with all sorts of men about the breakup. I was too devastated to leave my room, and I was completely dependent on strangers to help console me with my grief. I know that I have portrayed him as a middle class devil, but obviously I wouldn't have gotten involved with him if he didn't have some very magnetic endearing qualities too. No, I don't want him back, and even if he was just bullshitting me, he is the first guy that said he wanted to marry me.

autotelic   |2009-09-04 15:38:39 all his middle class qualities were somewhat hidden during the relationship, during our time together he mostly talked about the importance of chogyam trungpa's teachings, but the way he broke up with me was very corporate. Look, I miss the intimacy, even if it was just addictive closeness for both of us.

TMfocus  - meditate for change   |2009-09-04 15:42:01 Oh so he ISN'T a middle class devil. What a surprise! That kinda shines the light back on your borderline personality disorder and the typical emotional self destructiveness coded into borderline DNA.

Angie   |2009-09-04 15:48:20 Cant say I ever had any lovers who felt the need to stress the importance of Chogyam Trungpa to me, I dated one hot Trekkie once who I memorised half the Star Trek characters to impress . But love is weird like that which is why I prefer to keep my life simple and charge people for sex.

autotelic   |2009-09-04 16:15:33 fuck off TM, getting through grief is like riding a wave, there's anger, sadness, denial, relief. and i don't give a flying fuck if all i ever do is talk out of both sides of my mouth, there's nothing anyone can say to make me feel bad, I'm inconsistent, and that's the real reason why he broke up with me, maybe i'm at an age where i can just try to enjoy the fuck buddy thing, i'm 40 years old, there's got to be a space to explore, where emotional inconsistency isn't such a dealbreaker.

Frank  - False Memory Syndrome   |2009-09-04 16:18:02 If I'm honest I still miss Linda, we've been officially separated for 15 years now and its taken me that much time to process my interpersonal developmental issues and come to terms with living with my own personality , character defects and quirks. Would I want it any other way? Of course I fucking would!!!!

Anna   |2009-09-04 16:27:35 Well I think you're brave and thoughtful and that TM is the real asshole here. I've always considered borderlines to be incredibly human as emotional consistency spares most other people this kind of pain as the norm . Borderlines have to learn to ride the waves and how to cope with being wiped out time and time again. I think that gives them an insight into real love. You guy have great heart, no one can take that away from you.

autotelic   |2009-09-04 16:28:05 i don't want him back, but i would like to find someone to fill his space, my developmental tasks weren't completed when he dumped me, and if i'm feeling up to it, i'll use the 12 steps to guide me. and if i sound like a hopeless addict that has a huge gaping monstrous void that is impossible to fill, I don't fucking care, cause one way or another i'll find a way to fill it, how very borderline of me, right TM? (A more rational response from TM would be, 'how very biological of you') But i'm guessing the base nature of things is also another one of those obstacles that gets in the way of achieving true consciousness, according to TM.

autotelic   |2009-09-04 16:33:24 funny Anna, another thing he said when we broke up was, "You have such a big heart". And then I said, "And your heart is stunted and incapable of full bloom, and that's why it's so easy for you to let me go." I may be emotionally inconsistent, and not always available 24 hours a day, but I have 100% confidence that I know more about real love than most of the people on this planet, that I am sure of.

TMfocus  - meditate for change   |2009-09-04 16:47:59 Real love? Then I guess its just a real shame that the rest of us are too biologically consistent to live up to your exacting standards.

Anna   |2009-09-04 16:53:19 You'll find a way Autotelic and TM you'll stew in you own hatred for a few more lifetimes with your privileged apathy and ferocious contempt for others.I suspect you are deeply unloved and lack the capacity to even love yourself.

Anonymous   |2009-09-04 16:51:50 TM: pretty much, you fucking asshole, 'the rest of you' are all a bunch of lazy beasts consistency, complacency, same thing, kind of like a dull knife that ceases to function the way it should

Hermine   |2009-09-04 17:02:01 a lot of these sangha twats loathe the word 'duality'

TMfocus  - meditate for change   |2009-09-04 17:06:23 Bulshit! Nature wields the sharpest fucking knife and it'll ruthlessly pare away human genetic detrius hostile to consciousness and consistency . Lifeisbrutallyunfair Fail! And Anna I'd take your scathing attack on my character and future a lot more seriously if you weren't a broken drunken wreck . Drown yourself in a bottle you bitch. Fuck you.

Angel Boy   |2009-09-04 17:14:42 Oh my, we are sensitive this morning TM. Guess that comment about aversion to duality has hit a nerve, you're all 'I Have ' and so out of touch with Being. Call that stability? I call it living Death.

autotelic   |2009-09-04 17:23:20 most people will just take any old shit life gives them, and assume, that there's no possible way to transcend the dulled down banality of it all. It sounds like TM has settled, and I will never settle for a man that says, "Come now Sweet Pea, don't you trouble your pretty little head about theoretical questions". One time my ex said, "Pema Chodron says we need troublemakers in our lives, and you're a troublemaker all right!" And then he went on to say, "You have given me something to transcend thinking about today." ........the mind is only a problem for those that don't have the courage to face their own contradictory nature, and i sure as hell don't want to have any more affairs with men that are lacking real balls!!!!!!!!!!!!

jillian   |2009-09-04 17:48:44 so much for keeping things polite, isn't that what TM requested a few days ago, polite dialogue? It doesn't sound like he's losing his ego, but he did use the 'F' word, aha, a documented contradiction has surfaced. Isn't it funny how some interlopers arrive on the scene and just assume that we're all alcoholics?

TMfocus  - meditate for change   |2009-09-04 17:53:19 I'm pretty sure the circumference of my balls is within the same range as the circumference of your ego .

Anna  - Mental Fight Club   |2009-09-04 19:16:54 TM seems to have appointed himself Resident Alpha Male. Mind you it probably takes gallons of testosterone to beat up women just emerging from broken romantic relationships or who threaten as  - what was I again? - oh yes, broken drunken wrecks. Obviously far more adaptive than facing up to one's own contradictions. You're a real hero TM.

Anonymous   |2009-09-05 03:49:07 what a dismal disappointment people are, most of them are so cowardly, they refuse to recognize their own limitations, and once again, we have to witness how the alpha males are nothing more than frauds. But do be on the lookout out for the ones that look and act like Woody Allen, cause they turn out to be frauds too

jillian   |2009-09-05 04:07:54 at least I haven't been married and divorced, it's such a tacky middle class badge of honor when someone says, "I've been divorced twice." And then if you ask, "Well why did you ever get married in the first place?", the response you'll often get is, "I thought that's what you're supposed to do."

Anonymous   |2009-09-05 04:09:34 CLASH OF THE WILLS

autotelic  - pimpin propoganda   |2009-09-05 04:28:22 Usually, someone on here says something that I put into a box called 'laugh of the day', the following quote is very funny, I can picture TM trying to get his hands around my throat as he rants away.......and when you read the quote in bold you can see that his entire ideology is based on the belief that 'class awareness is the biggest obstacle to achieving true consciousness'. "Bulshit! Nature wields the sharpest fucking knife and it'll ruthlessly pare away human genetic detrius hostile to consciousness and consistency."

V   |2009-09-05 04:30:56 but maybe he was directing that quote to himself, if so, it makes sense.

Sarah   |2009-09-05 04:38:09 We love animals, and we play with shelter puppies

TM  - quote of the day   |2009-09-05 05:21:00 Autotelic said: "I have 100% confidence that I know more about real love than most of the people on this planet, that I am sure of." You must be talking about malignant self-love, did you get the book yet? Weren't you quoted as saying that love has always been a vehicle for you to act out unhealthy addictive behavior? Busted.

Angel Boy  - date with destiny   |2009-09-05 05:47:56 For someone so opposed to Class consciousness TM sure seems anxious to fight the corner for his Class here. On the other hand, I must confess to being ver so slightly curious regarding Autotelic and the Malignant Self-Love book....did she get it from the library or not? We need to know.

Anna   |2009-09-05 05:57:40 Are people who use terms like ' human genetic detrius ' capable of romantic relationships? Perhaps hatred is TM's way of expressing affection. Maybe he has the hots for someone here.

TMfocus  - meditate for change   |2009-09-05 06:14:04 Just so that you know I am in a very stable , healthy and loving relationship that is for life. I was also raised by loving parents who celebrated their 35th wedding anniversary last year . Is it so difficult for you losers to grasp that some of us come from emotionally secure backgrounds and are perfectly normal?

Bjorne   |2009-09-05 06:23:34 Sarah , 'lovelorn and sick puppies in a shelterless world' would probably be more accurate.....

TMfocus  - meditate for change   |2009-09-05 06:45:07 The Thomas Merton quote at the top of the page is also a critique of Malignant Self Love. I wonder if Autotelic is planning to discuss this with her therapist.

autotelic   |2009-09-05 06:45:18 my ex had some good and bad qualities, but the one thing I noticed as I was making my exit, is the same thing that I have noticed my entire life, most people don't have any idea, or the means to act from a place of true compassion. Sure, most of my romantic relationships have been addictive, but you took my quote out of context, I was making reference to real love as a way of life and being, where every breath is acutely aware and concerned about the suffering of others, in a very intuitive, almost psychedelic kind of way, think of Simone Weil and Dorothy Day, that's the kind of consciousness I embrace, and they were full of piss and vinegar too. My ex came from a healthy stable background, but it will take him many lifetimes to achieve the sensitivity and awareness of suffering that Dorothy and Simone possessed. Basically he broke up with me because of the way my mind works, and the overwhelming amount of feeling for others that naturally dwells within my heart, I didn't learn it from a book, because you can't learn it from a book. (and even if i emailed him this passage, he still wouldn't get it)

autotelic   |2009-09-05 06:54:30 I've reached the end of my rope where hypocrisy is concerned. I'm very very disappointed in many of those who speak about consciousness, but don't live it.

autotelic   |2009-09-05 07:04:10 the most dangerous people are those that receive christ-like compassion and can only respond by saying, "you've given me something to transcend thinking about today." I learned a lot from this relationship......we've been hanging the wrong people up on the cross for far too long.

autotelic   |2009-09-05 07:11:39 what the fuck was i doing with someone that claims to have eradicated 85% of his thoughts?

Scott   |2009-09-05 07:21:33 I can relate to your predicament Autotelic. Truly compassionate people have an impossibly hard time in the world, Simone Weil is a perfect example. Yes she was flawed , self-opinionated, incredibly stubborn , autistic even but she was capable of human love in its purest sense. You are too. Weil also led a haphazard life and would probably also be dismissed as a crank by TM and all the other people who get on in the world by putting themselves first . Too many people understand consciousness as a theory but haven't yet learned to listen to their own hearts.

TMfocus  - meditate for change   |2009-09-05 07:23:50 what the fuck was i doing with someone that claims to have eradicated 85% of his thoughts? ....struggling to stimulate the remaining 25%?

Frank   |2009-09-05 07:29:23 TM - remaining 25%? Don't you mean remaining 15% you fucking jerk.

MarinCountyHealer   |2009-09-05 07:43:13 Hi autotelic, a fleeting visit I'm afraid as am still working on the notes for the workshops this weekend. Your comments about love so inspired me , hadn't heard of Simone Weil before and think I am going to try to draw out some of the points you raised about compassion and love during the Saturday session. It'll mean a rewrite but its no trouble to work for something I believe in. You hang in there and don't be bullied into being someone or something you're not by thoughtless inconsiderate people.

TMfocus  - meditate for change   |2009-09-05 15:17:19 Jesus, I almost puked into my yoghurt and cereal reading these overnight comments, what the fuck is this? The Saint Autotelic Fan Club? You sniveling motherfuckers may get off on viewing this latest pathetic episode of autotelic's lovelife as a sacred and tragic passion play but pardon me for not quite seeing autotelic and the borderline sisterhood of Weil and Day and whichever other crazy disrupive bitches she wants to throw into the mix here in the same deluded way. Get over it!

admin #2   |2009-09-05 15:55:23 TM: if visiting this website is a form of torture for you, stop making an appearance, and if it's really frustrating for you, just go to blogspot, and within about 60 seconds you can start your own blog, and if you're struggling to find a catchy title, just call it 'Theories of Consciousness' There have been others over the last 2 years, that have sent us emails indicating that they aren't getting what they need from this website, and we just tell them to go start their own websites. But Pema is right, we need troublemakers in our lives, maybe you don't get to express yourself at the sangha?

autotelic   |2009-09-05 16:09:27 Scott said: "Truly compassionate people have an impossibly hard time in the world, Simone Weil is a perfect example. Yes she was flawed , self-opinionated, incredibly stubborn , autistic even but she was capable of human love in its purest sense." I just have a very Catholic way of expressing myself, and that is very irritating to those that just want to let it go, so when my ex said, 'you need to stop thinking', he was really saying, 'the need for justice isn't important enough to think about'

Anonymous   |2009-09-05 16:19:17 Simone Weil did embody love in its purest sense, and that's why she never found herself entangled in romantic affairs.

DLH  - it's a musical!   |2009-09-05 16:29:22 Autotelic said: "the most dangerous people are those that receive christ-like compassion and can only respond by saying, "you've given me something to transcend thinking about today." I learned a lot from this relationship......we've been hanging the wrong people up on the cross for far too long." Is this woman serious? Why don't you just post a video from Jesus ChrisT Superstar already, since that movie was only produced to entertain.

Guess who?   |2009-09-05 17:03:03 She that understands true humility can get away with saying whatever she wants, and no one will ever have the authority to invalidate or question anything that the saint of pure love has to say. Am I a friend, foe, or former lover? Do I believe in you, or think you're full of shit?

Anna   |2009-09-05 17:24:04 What I'm struggling to make sense of is why TMfocus feels so compelled to bear witness here at all. I suspect he is concealing something from us , perhaps he has been hurt very badly in love and life and instinctively blames women for this. An overbearing mother ,a disappointing ex girlfriend who knows but it really is cowardly of TM to try to silence others who are honest and brave enough to openly interrogate their own emotions , contradictions and prejudices. So come on TM be a man and declare your real interest here and kickstart the process of exorcising your own demons.

Guess who?   |2009-09-05 17:30:38 an admin said: "There have been others over the last 2 years, that have sent us emails indicating that they aren't getting what they need from this website" (That's one big understatement.)

Kellerman   |2009-09-05 19:55:47 I'm not so sure that Simone Weil did entirely manage to avoid romantic affairs , she probably never acted on her 'romantic ' impulses in a sexual sense but she certainly held a number of key male figures in high esteem from very early on in her life , starting with her brother whom she absolutely idolised but also fought and competed with. I think Weil was acutely aware of how fragile human relationships are but also , through her unworldlieness , miscalculated how unprincipled people could be and the extent that they would go to avoid facing truth. Weil grasped the essence of pure love in the fragility of human relations and pursued its liberation with all her heart throughout her short life. Weil was wounded by every additional imposition on this human fragility that she became aware of , every blow, and to Weil 'being' was a state of endless 'worldly' suffering that , after sacrificing herself to the anomie of capitalist manufacture and becoming totally disillusioned with the redemptive capacity of revolutionary politics , she believed could only be mediated through toil, unalienated work on the human scale , and beyond that, divine love . Weil certainly doesn't abandon Class consciousness like TM , she simply renounces Karl Marx's messianic take on history as for Weil Class Struggle simply takes place on a higher plane in the battle for the human soul as her spiritual revolution isn't inevitable , its just necessary for those who seek true consciousness and liberation , it is the ultimate struggle. So Weil didnt see Class consciousness as a hinderence to spiritual liberation nor did Dorothy Day and you can be sure that neither saw the greedy and apathetic middle classes and rich as the key to human salvation . (whereas Marx the radical humanist economic determinist did!!! and TM must too unless he feels the material conditions that have afforded him the stability to criticize the rootless are simply illusory beyond their immediate lifestyle and opportunity supporting role for him) Oddly enough on her first trip to Barcelona Weil , who was renowned for over dressing ,hung out in a skimpy swimsuit for so long that her landlord reproached her as he thought it indecent.

TMfocus  - meditate for change   |2009-09-05 20:09:09 If Weil had been born a generation later her quest for truth and liberation would have led her to discover Prozac. Face the truth, there is no contradiction between seeking spiritual enlightenment and appreciating the way technology and the Capitalist mode of production have transformed all our lives for the better. Its a no brainer for anyone holding a winning ticket in the genetic lottery.

Angie   |2009-09-05 20:11:28 If its such a 'no brainer ' you arrogant cocksucker why is the way we live costing us the earth?

Angel Boy   |2009-09-05 20:39:10 'you need to stop thinking', he was really saying, 'the need for justice isn't important enough to think about' Yeah, one really has to suspend all critical thinking to arrive at the conclusion that our  longterm survival on the planet is best guaranteed by thoughtlessness. Did your ex accuse you of being negative as well?

Frank   |2009-09-05 21:06:12 On thoughtlessness, the G20 today failed to arrive at an agreement to limit obscene payments to bankers that people are so pissed about but pledged to continue financial support for the global economy until recovery from recession is secured and stated that 'bankers should take note that they owed their salvation to action by taxpayers.' In what way is this Class based theft acceptable or necessary TM? How is rewarding the greediest fuckers on the planet in keeping with the higher level of spiritual consciousness you claim to have attained? Or has salvation of the rich become the principle aim of your Ivy League Sangha.

Bjorn  - beyond criticism   |2009-09-05 21:18:00 One of our fiercest critics stalked the site for months as he badmouthed one of the admins offline but was then spotted at a mental health fund raising arts event in Sante Fe wearing a lifeisbrutallyunfair t-shirt.

Admin 3   |2009-09-05 21:38:56 I really like the 'Saint of Pure Love ' tag, now all we need is an appropriate pic.

JulianVanZ   |2009-09-05 23:42:43 You have a very fucking selective memory Bjorn as Autotelic gave me that t shirt when we were still on speaking terms and don't flatter yourselves, I just threw it on to go to the Sante Fe gig and remember some guy who is apparently associated in some way with Dennis Hopper saying to the chick I went with that the shirt design was a crock of shit. Its in the car now and I use it for wiping the windscreen. Anyway, you're obviously starved of genuine publicity, hits and feedback and you know me, always glad to help promote the brand of a couple of 100% authentic fucking existential losers. Keep up the good work dude.

Guess Who Guessing Who   |2009-09-06 00:09:29 A friend and admirer of course , we have enough critics already.

autotelic   |2009-09-06 02:29:59 you're still around Julian? Well, KM's designs are a crock of shit too, he's a no talent hack, and the reason why he removed the link to my site is because he knows that my art is far more substantial than his will ever be, but you gotta admire a manufactured outsider that can sell to a bourgeois market, it's all about the insincere delivery, you know it, I know it, and he knows it. HIS COFFEE TABLE BlURB BOOK IS LAME. He has shown the world that he has absolutely nothing to say.

Anonymous   |2009-09-06 02:32:11 genuine people never get genuine publicity

Guess Who  - 6th and B   |2009-09-06 03:40:51 Hey Autotelic, where's all the love you keep talking about? That sucks that you got dumped. I bet you're in a lot of pain, and you're probably really sad that the world has gotten even more intolerable over the last 15 years.

JulianVanZ  - outsider art   |2009-09-06 03:50:23 Well that's just your opinion as actually I'm now really turned on to Kelly's work, its nuanced and conjures up the magical, and the naturalistic text thats so simple yet esoteric just blows me away. I also picked up a signed copy of Eruption . Made my year. But lets not go over all this again, I'm not going to knock a guy for being so down with his audience and who the fuck knows, maybe bourgeoise tastes are superior , its a possibility

Bjorn   |2009-09-06 04:08:22 Get the fuck out of here Julian! Kelly's art is standard Flickr fare , its vacuous and its a real fucking tragedy that outsiders in any realm of the arts only get a look in if they have nothing challenging to say. And don't even get me started on the text.

autotelic   |2009-09-06 04:09:26 none of this matters, because my pain has nothing to do with art, this is just meaningless small talk. My ex did say something kind of cool once. He said there should be a Buddhist book called 'You're Not Special Now And You Weren't Special Then'.........he was making reference to other artists.

Angel Boy  - 6th and B   |2009-09-06 04:34:27 The pain of abandonment is always excrutiatingly awful but Borderline's seem to bear it with more dignity than most because they allow themselves to feel completely abandoned. Most people don't they are conditioned to avoid suffering at any cost , to hedge their bets , including rotting away inside relationships they hate if it comes to it. Yet they don't hesitate to gloat and snigger when someone who readilly embraces the pain of abandonment gives voice to their hurt. Its an animal thing.

AUTOTELIC   |2009-09-06 04:55:49 I agree Angel Boy, I have allowed myself to feel completely abandoned. And then, out of nowhere, I'm reminded that KM'S art continues to gain momentum, it's so irrelevant to me. We don't have a link to his site. He's not important enough for us to mention.

Anonymous   |2009-09-06 04:58:56 JULIAN'S A SYCOPHANT KISS KISS KISS

Not Telling  - proxy server   |2009-09-06 06:09:33 She see through everything and everybody, but she can't keep lovers, and she no longer has any friends. She is the great despiser, please, I implore thee, do explain, in grand detail, how this correlates with love in its most pure precious form?

Bjorn   |2009-09-06 06:23:10 There comes this point in experiencing being utterly abandoned when one actually starts to appreciate the harshly imposed freedom. It's not a blinding realization, its more gradual than that.

Angel Boy   |2009-09-06 06:34:31 It's very easy to act out over all the superficial, selfish and destructive bulshit going on in the world and be racked by love for humanity too. The real contradiction is in those who routinely engage in all the selfish, destructive bulshit but think they express love normally.

D   |2009-09-06 14:17:31 "She see through everything and everybody,but she can't keep lovers,and she no longer has any friends how does this correlates with love in its most pure precious form?" Don't want to push the Simone Weil thing too hard as it'll probably wake the vile TM from his deep ugly sleep but most commentaries highlight the fact that Simone was socially awkward , abrasive and a trying character at the best of times. There's a social cost attached to certain ways of being, Weil herself would have probably put it down to attention span or resource allocation , its clear that she often wearied of the lone path too but she persistd with it because it was in her nature to. I wonder what she would have made of the Myspace and Facebook generation.

Bjorn   |2009-09-06 14:29:03 The Ernest Becker Foundation site recently received a makeover ( damn we could have done the artwork....) and there's a good short review of James Carse's book ' The Religious Case Against Belief 'which is interesting. I wonder how much traction those guys are getting in schools nowadays, its definitely a worthwhile project and interesting to think about how to positively tap into the benefits of religion without getting bogged down in rigid conflict generating beliefs.

TMfocus  - meditate for change   |2009-09-06 14:32:27 The EBF site promotes communism.

autotelic   |2009-09-06 15:20:25 this is the reason why I lost many friends along the way: "The real contradiction is in those who routinely engage in all the selfish, destructive bulshit but think they express love normally." I have been startled recently, more startled than usual, I keep witnessing an unconditional amount of dark energy coming from those that think they love normally. Does it not make sense that one who understands pure love would also be a great despiser? I can see and smell the sickness of those that are afraid of the mind. I am opposed to the belief that "the real marker of spiritual progress is the absence of thought."

TMfocus  - meditate for change   |2009-09-06 15:21:36 Damn I almost choked up on my breakfast again pondering your stupidity, I can't let this go , its all about making your fucking miserable lives so much easier isn't it? Lets make G-d and religion easier, lets dumb down the schools, lets make human relationships easier and lets regard mental retardation as a virtue .. Jesus, I knew when Adolf Obama got elected we'd be in serious trouble ...nobody likes me blah blah blah You're fucking retards that's why ! And now the retards want to educate kids about death and dying in schools. Over my dead body!

autotelic   |2009-09-06 15:28:27 I can see and smell the sickness of those that are afraid of death, and loss of the ego. Living without an ego is easy, but it can be trying at times to live in a world full of people that don't want to let theirs go. and yes, I would very much like to give my ex a golden shower.

Angel Boy   |2009-09-06 15:47:57 Thoughtlessness is just that and I've always found the idea of achieving inner spiritual liberation and full consciousness by practiced thoughtlessness to be suspect . Weil abandoned faith in the invitability of Marxist working class revolution but she didn't abstract away and shut down to the distress and suffering of humanity , I wont make many friends saying this but there comes a point where a dependency upon inactive meditation as a response to life simply becomes another symptom of the all pervasiveness selfishness of capitalist society. Yes, living with our egos is the problem but our egos dont diminish because we overly focus inwards, real selflessness requires the compassionate and active consideration of the plight of others beyond the realm of spiritual thought and astral wishful thinking.

Angie  - shower   |2009-09-06 15:46:43 Yeah, that would probably piss him off. Keep the faith auto.

Anna  - Golden Shower   |2009-09-06 15:50:44 well its a little unorthodox but I imagine it could be incorporated into the 12 steps.

Anonymous   |2009-09-06 15:51:16 Hey Autotelic, if it's so trying for you to dwell within a world full of people that live, thrive, and die on ego, then you obviously haven't lost your ego. Think about it, a person with no ego doesn't get angry or disappointed in others that are still in captivity of the ego. And you would think that a person that has access to the 'pure love way of being' would exercise compassion for all, it feels like you have anger for all instead. Explain.

Dr Spock   |2009-09-06 16:22:43 I'd put it down to simple human frustration and its understanable and forgivable. No-one here is aiming at perfection but when the accepted cultural ideal is to a) not give a fuck about anyone else or b) the spiritual alternative , find deeper and more meaninful ways to not give a fuck about anyone else one's love is likely to get a little diluted with anger and frustration. Diminishing returns more or less take care of the routine disappoitment. Whatever, its not like autotelic is the only one with contradictions and at least she willingly makes herself available for scrutiny.

Zack   |2009-09-06 16:43:12 We are One Tree and rely on the same root system.

autotelic   |2009-09-06 17:24:21 I'm probably more Catholic than I am Buddhist, and within the realm of Catholicism, there's ALOT more play room for righteous anger, I think it's safe to say that Jesus had more anger than the Buddha. Jesus would never be quoted as saying, 'Woman of humility, why you so angry?" Here's something kind of ironic. I recently met a guy that volunteers as a chef at A Catholic run shelter. He didn't know much about me so he asked, 'Have you ever heard of The Catholic Workers'? I just chuckled and said, 'Yeah why?' And he goes, 'I've never met a more fiery, disruptive group of people in my life.  They're so angry.' Righteous anger is so common among Catholic activists that it's not even considered a venial sin, so please, don't ever hold me up to the standards of Buddhist dogma.

Angie   |2009-09-06 16:52:18 That's some pretty insightful Righteous fucking Indignation there Sister.

TMfocus  - meditate for change   |2009-09-06 16:56:12 Give me Bhuddist Dogma over the Roman Catholic Church's record of hypocrisy , intolerance and child abuse any time. Catholics are full of Self Righteous Bulshit

Anonymous   |2009-09-06 16:56:41 Anger isn't considered a venial sin? You must be one of Catholics that has forgotten about the importance of The Confession booth.

autotelic   |2009-09-06 17:13:57 sometimes we all get busted for spelling words wrong here, probably due to all that highly charged fiery anger. Anyway, this is how I meant to spell Catholicism.

autotelic   |2009-09-06 17:21:22 now that we have established that I'm a self righteous Catholic and Not some thoughtless Ashram Diva, can we please get back in the ring for another round? I'm ready, gloves off.

Righteous Admin   |2009-09-06 17:22:51 Catholism is probably a fiery heretical breakaway sect of Catholicism but I've corrected the typo anyway .

Anonymous   |2009-09-06 17:29:02 Too funny! Perhaps Catholism is the word that can apply to those of us that have no need for the confession booth.

TMfocus  - meditate for change   |2009-09-06 17:33:12 You wont need an opponent in the ring with you then as Catholics are world title holders at beating themselves up and guilting themselves out. I'll just watch from the sidelines and exchange smalltalk with the Dharma chicks. Not too much blood, please. Ding!!

Angel Boy   |2009-09-06 17:38:49 Does anyone know who the Patron Saint of Dyslexics as we need to create a shrine for him/her on this board?

KM   |2009-09-06 17:40:39 Saint Luke is the Patron Saint of frustrated artists..

AMG   |2009-09-07 05:19:04 yeah, figures KM would know about Saint Luke, I never knew, cause it's not an issue for me. The only good info I heard from the KM camp is that his truck got vandalized, all the other "news" has been very unremarkable.

AMG  - vernacular visionaries in Santa Fe   |2009-09-07 05:23:05 ....hope I can't get in trouble for saying that, but it looks like others that have signed his guest book share similar feelings.

admin   |2009-09-07 05:51:38 There's some might creepy search strings and "probing techniques" going round, from some very questionable people, there are definitely those that would love to see all of us get in trouble for saying what's on our minds. Call it online mind gaming, it's very complex and subversive, it would definitely make for a most interesting video game, for those that don't take paranoia too seriously.

Vinny   |2009-09-07 05:59:48 You mean how far can you take freedom of thought and expression when you actually know what you're talking about?

Anonymous   |2009-09-07 06:07:53 a dissected mind can attract rogue incinerators in a virtual world where there are no laws, yet. That's why so many have subscribed to the belief that banishing thought is the only way to live without landing on the hate radar.

Vinny   |2009-09-07 06:18:00 Is it too late in the game to convince the rogue incinerators that this is all just a joke? WTF IS GOING ON?????????????????

autotelic   |2009-09-07 07:04:15 Vinny, I will send you and other regular members on the board information through email. And for everyone else, I have no intention of retracting anything I've ever said, and I will continue to say whatever I want, when I want, ON THIS WEBSITE.

Supreme Admin   |2009-09-07 07:36:56 Rest assured we will hold out against the rogue incinerators as long as we can. We will not be intimidated.

busboy  - vapid vernacular   |2009-09-07 07:47:22 KM's truck was vandalised.... Wow! after wooing Santa Fe's chattering classes he's finally getting the attention he deserves from the street.

Bjorn   |2009-09-07 07:57:12 We're getting some sinister hits from scrapers too , its all part of a wider conspiracy driven by the pathologically distrustful masters of being.

TMfocus  - meditate for change   |2009-09-07 08:09:29 From Catholism to this lame Futurist Cyber Punk shit. I really am dealing with retards.

Zack  - they might be slaves   |2009-09-07 08:39:52 You have no idea what or who you're dealing with TM. No idea.

Bruno   |2009-09-07 15:03:47 we also have the right to publicly talk about who's cool, and who isn't, and without even seeing what TM looks like, I can already tell that he has a deplorable sense of fashion in mind, body, and soul.

Dr Spock  - shadow puppets in the wired world   |2009-09-07 15:16:16 The rogue incinerators work in a murky world of international intrigue , the FBI and CIA have  been running the 'Echelon' and 'Carnivore' projects to covertly snoop on phone conversations and internet communications for years and you can be sure these have been updated with smarter technology now. The recent unrest in Iran revealed how Nokia Seimens had sold the Iranian Government a European designed system for ' deep packet inspection' for monitoring and hacking cell phone commuincations. If Iran has this technology then Western Governments and other interested parties have something better. There are also bots out there that are gathering information for their own ends as the technological ability to intercept communications and broadcast data far outstrips the human capacity to process , sift through and make sense of it. In other words we are being spied on by machines ,that operate outside of human control and evolve their own logic for targetting us.The rogue incinerators piggy back on this technology.

AUTOTELIC   |2009-09-07 15:16:36 "You mean how far can you take freedom of thought and expression when you actually know what you're talking about?" exactly, if we didn't know what we were talking about, certain group think factions wouldn't be hovering around 24/7 like a pack of vultures. Vultures wait for death, if they were really smart, they would call in the hyenas to do the killing for them. And no, I didn't wake up with any Catholic guilt this morning, but I did ask myself why those that should have guilt, don't.

TMfocus  - meditate for change   |2009-09-07 15:28:31 I'm not prepared to waste any more neural energy on these silly 'New World Order ' -like conspiracy theories and you know nothing about me Bruno , I am a very private individual .I also believe our Government respects our Rights to Privacy and Freedom of Speech besides if you're a Law Abiding citizen you have nothing to fear from electronic snooping even if it is going on.

autotelic  - The Rogue Incinerator Project   |2009-09-07 15:40:57 I'll probably be plagiarized once again. I won't be given credit for coming up with the term "Rogue Incinerators" I'll just wake up one day to discover that the official Rogue Incinerator Project has completely hacked the most dangerous weapon I possess, my mind.

Zack   |2009-09-07 16:32:16 Your mind has already been hacked , its being used as a host by the Sworm to get information about the threat from the Rogue Incinerators out there. Essentially you're a bot controlled by the Sworm.

**********   |2009-09-07 16:44:00 This is not within the grasp of understanding by TM, my ex, or any of the countless others that have terminated taking the mind as far as it can go. They would never find themselves in the position that we find ourselves in today.

********************   |2009-09-07 17:13:36 We have well documented information that The Rogue Incinerators are hosting within the minds of those that have written and read books about how they have transcended the trappings of the mind. Essentially The Rogue Incinerators operate as The Anti-Christ in The New Age/Meditation For Dummies Market. Chances are, you've had sex with a Rogue Incinerator, and no, he/she doesn't walk and talk like Dick Cheney. The Rogue Incinerators wear the mask of a guru or enlightened spiritual leader. The Rogue Incinerators promote liberation of the self through subtle, socially acceptable lobotomy tactics.

**********   |2009-09-07 17:28:17 we cracked the code motherfuckers .....and if you don't believe me, just go ask the other admin.

William Burroughs   |2009-09-08 03:59:20 Sometimes paranoia is just having all the facts.

jillian  - another middle class compromise   |2009-09-08 05:32:00 Have you ever noticed that if you're too rational or too borderline it's difficult to be around just about everyone?

Vinny   |2009-09-08 05:43:17 Jillian, in order for people to stick around, you can't let them know that you're borderline or rational, having the ability to sustain communion with others does require a certain middle class sensibility. But don't let it keep you up at night.

Hermann Hesse   |2009-09-08 05:54:02 "The bourgeois prefers comfort to pleasure, convenience to liberty, and a pleasant temperature to the deathly inner consuming fire." ......And you can't be too passionate either, not if you want to shuck and jive like everyone else about The Middle Way.

Rollo May  - The Case For and Against The Rational Borderline   |2009-09-08 15:01:03 He will always be for the borderline if she is completely dependent on the hero/rescuer, BUT ONLY,(READ THE PRENUP, There is a clause) if she can use her dependency to consistently satisfy the base needs of the savior. (partial communication is permissable if base needs are being met) He will be against The rationalist if she starts to question the necessity, sanity, and health of the merger, if she mentions the word autonomy, the hero feels threatened that his base needs will no longer be met consistently, because the hero is also borderline, and he is only semi-capable of being rational if he starts to sense that the other isn't capable of completing him, at that point he ceases to be a hero, and retreats back into a boy that is very angry at mommy for taking away her titty for passification reasons. But that's not very rational. And he secretly confesses to himself that he's not capable of striking a balance, and he must, once again, reassess the myth that woman was designed to make him feel like a king, at all times, and in all ways.

autotelic   |2009-09-08 15:53:54 not to change the subject, but I think that Oasis is the greatest band that's been around for the last 15 years or so. Too bad there isn't a decent video for The Girl In The Dirty Shirt.

sarah   |2009-09-08 16:11:32 ugh! I can't stand Liam's vocals! I love Noel's guitar playing though.

Vinny   |2009-09-08 16:19:36 Oasis might be one of your favorite bands, but in all honesty, would you ever be seen wearing an Oasis t-shirt????? .....I didn't think so.

D  - ref Communication with Others   |2009-09-09 04:40:25 Jillian, Yeah I notice it all the time, communication with other people is near impossible , its a real relief just being able to vent about it here.

Bjorn   |2009-09-09 04:37:16 Oasis have their moments , good working class band whose members - sober anyway - make no great claims of enlightenment. btw I think we've shared too much information about the Rogue Incinerators People just need to know is that so called spiritual exercises desgined to still the mind let them in. The Rogue Incinerators target those who meditate.

TMfocus  - meditate for change   |2009-09-09 04:38:30 Oasis? I've never heard of them. Are they a new Bay Area band? In my book no-one beats the Grateful Dead . I'm listening to the Eagles at the moment.

Frank   |2009-09-09 04:47:14 The bourgeois really come to life at funerals.

Anonymous   |2009-09-09 14:04:29 I never remember a time when life was particularly cruel, it must suck to have a memory.

Anonymous   |2009-09-09 14:17:43 I also don't remember a time that I was ever cruel, that's why so many modern spiritual teachers stress not living in the past.

autotelic   |2009-09-09 14:30:24 Those that are crafty and deceptive in hiding their fears are the most naked (and vile) beasts of all.

autotelic  - anger management   |2009-09-09 14:36:37 Lifeisbrutallyunfair.com, the only safe place left in the world where it's ok to vent. Throughout the entire history of mankind, there are only 4 words to describe this existence, life is brutally unfair.

The Last Guy She Slept With   |2009-09-09 14:44:46 Let me repeat myself, with you, the glass isn't half empty or half full, it's already broken!

David   |2009-09-09 15:54:22 Why can't you view the heights and depths that were shared with a lot more objectivity and a lot less rage? You wanted the opportunity to express yourself, and a vehicle for your desire was granted. I don't understand why so many people regret giving love.

autotelic   |2009-09-09 16:14:00 David, A vehicle for my desire was granted? What kind of language is that? It's a damn good thing that you were responsible enough to get a vasectomy.

Julian   |2009-09-09 16:33:41 Typical Autotelic bullshit, every man she gets intimate with gets heaped into the villian box. I was smart to avoid getting involved with her, cause I knew that if I did, she would spend the rest of her life accusing me of acting like her father.

autotelic   |2009-09-09 17:02:02 Yes Julian, I often wonder why I have such contempt for my former lovers, when they would just prefer to think of our time together as a good memory, perhaps I'm very evil and sinister, and have a real need to guilt people out for abandoning me the same way that my father did. I recognize what I need to work through, but there aren't any therapists in this town that deserve my money. You're well connected Julian, see if you can get me an appointment with Irvin Yalom.

julian   |2009-09-09 17:23:54 Hey thats a bit one sided, I'm in abc this afternoon for a Yoga gig, lets meet up to talk about it.

autotelic  - the villian box   |2009-09-09 18:31:55 I'm just very angry, and I don't trust processing it with anyone but a therapist. Julian, are you saying you want to console me, or make me feel worse? It's possible for us to talk, given that we were never intimate. Did you have an implosion David? You can definitely find out a lot about yourself by coming to this website. My observations are not mere projections, they're reflections of what really happened. I'm surprised that you even had the nerve to take a quick glance into the mirror.

Frank  - no rear mirror   |2009-09-09 19:36:35 Those who travel with a really clear and comfortable view of home and destination are never going to stop glancing in the rear mirror to remind themselves where they're at. They're never going to really question the journey, at worst they'll freak occasionally over a missed intersection, other than that, they have he entire trip all maped out.

jillian   |2009-09-10 03:05:49 Don't take this the wrong way, but is it possible that you're angry because you might have to use the 12 steps if you ever get involved with a guy again? Once we admit we have a problematic addiction, it's very easy to get extremely pissed off at all those people that enabled us every step of the misguided way, instead of pointing out that there's a problem, and part of the addictive process for many men is that they're willing to overlook all sorts of behavioral problems if the sex is good. It sucks, but it's true.

ThePleasantVlleKid   |2009-09-10 03:18:26 Its unhuman to be alone.

TMfocus  - meditate for change   |2009-09-10 03:33:08 I'm getting heavy compassion fatigue just trying to keep up with autotelic's romantic interpersonal trauma and misery and now the Kid is getting in on the bawling act too without being the slightest bit entertaining. Is there anyway I can block that guy so I don't have to read his posts.

Sarah   |2009-09-10 03:35:27 a successful conquest for a man is always going to be a good memory, regardless of how disastrous the ending, it's not at all unusual for a conquered woman to feel that she wasted her time on a hairless ape. If a man achieves conquest quickly and easily, he becomes useless just as fast. So, you either need to develop a platonic friendship with a man, and remain platonic for at least 3-6-9-12 months, or develop the characteristics of a man on a conquest, and be ruled entirely by the body, but if you're gonna do that, YOU HAVE TO KEEP THE MIND OUT OF IT. I suggest the former. As someone who has also been there countless times, I think it's healthier to get yourself into a recovery program. You have every right to be angry at your father for abandoning you, but if you don't find a way to heal, or come to terms with your childhood wounds, you'll never know what healthy intimacy is supposed to feel like. BUT, if you ever do find yourself in a stable long term relationship, don't be too disappointed if you discover that it's not all that.....and then you might run the risk of craving another destructive exciting romantic affair, and the cycle starts all over again.  That's why for some, celibacy is the only answer.

Angie   |2009-09-10 04:33:22 The meeting of bodies is easy, its the meeting of minds that comes at such a pretty fucking unhealthy cost in my experience. I think of those two guys in On the Road who sit cross legged facing each other on the bed in Denver revealing their minds and souls to each other who then fall out later over some trivial shit. I think its possible to have been in love too many times. Celibacy is one clear answer.

Vinny   |2009-09-10 04:40:03 Since we're friends, I'm going to say something that may slightly disqualify one of Jillian's statements, with hopes that I won't piss of the feline trinity. She said: "it's very easy to get extremely pissed off at all those people that enabled us every step of the misguided way," Some of us don't realize that we're enabling addictive behavior when we get involved with hopeless romantics, of course I know better now, but if all you're used to is going through the process of slowly getting to know a woman, and not connecting right away, it really does feel like magic when the entire universe unfolds all at once through infatuation, it took me a while to figure out that this quick bonding pattern is not natural, but until you realize this, it's very hard to discourage a woman from sending an abundant amount of affection your way, but if it feels too good to be true, it usually is. However, If Jillian is talking about men that know better, and have insight into how it's all going to go down horribly, then yes, that's enabling behavior.

autotelic   |2009-09-10 04:49:41 Well, I don't think we should let the inadvertent enablers off the hook more than once.

TMfocus  - meditate for change   |2009-09-10 04:51:13 More hippy bulshit! The Kerouac characters are all gays and junkies , piss poor role models for mindfulness and sharing but there is nothing wrong with celibacy as a lifestyle choice as long as its spiritually focussed. If Celibacy is just embraced because of an inability to engage in and sustain a healthy balanced relationship then there's nothing noble about it, its just fucked up human behaviour , nothing more , nothing less.

autotelic   |2009-09-10 05:06:00 Fuck off TM, I've mostly been celibate my entire life, with the occasional foray into Juno land. You said:  "If Celibacy is just embraced because of an inability to engage in and sustain a healthy balanced relationship then there's nothing noble about it, its just fucked up human behaviour , nothing more , nothing less." That's exactly why I embrace celibacy. It's called conscious damage control.  I just got out of a sexual relationship that I had no business being in. AND DON'T CALL US HIPPIES! WE ARE DEFINITELY NOT,  UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, HIPPIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

autotelic   |2009-09-10 05:28:34 And yes TM, I enabled my recent lover to feel addicted to me, so I guess I should cut him a little slack for saying things that he didn't mean, since such an overwhelming connection was quite a new invigorating experience for him. LMFAO!

Julian   |2009-09-10 05:37:27 She's a frustrated closeted lesbian that can't get enough of the war between the sexes! She was the biggest flirt at Pride, and then 2 weeks later, she found herself in bed with a man.

Frank   |2009-09-10 06:04:54 There was a time that I blamed every bartender on the strip for inadvertantly enabling my descent into alcoholism rather than tackle my drinking . I'm sure Romance junkies are capable of doing the same thing .Fuck!, what am I talking about, I have practically been every kind of addict its possible to be! At one point I would have gladly sold my soul to the devil for any kind of numbing hit , I was that fucking maladjusted. Fortunately Satan didn't seem to want my soul and I at least got a handle on the drinking.

TMfocus  - meditate for change   |2009-09-10 06:02:58 If you're not Hippies then you're probably the next worst thing, depressed New Agers one gene short of the group hug

KM   |2009-09-10 06:18:20 Ha!! You get me every time.The Ringleader of the Tormentors decrying the Inadvertent Enablers!

Anna  - Ringleader of the Tormentors   |2009-09-10 14:22:45 KM, Ha? At least autotelic understands that people can be spiritually wounded and intuitively grasps that addictions, her own and more generally , suppress troubled consciousness and perpetuate affliction. You don't understand or care . We're all self tormenting and I've struggled long enough with my self torment to be able to see that autotelic has enough raw insight to enable a painful but necessary discussion of this terribly destructive process .If that makes her Ringleader of the Tormentors so be it . But lets look at you KM,  you habitually conceal your wounds and psychic bruises and so arrogantly sneer at those who are more open than you are because you're addicted to ignorance and condemned to avoid conscious self awareness raising suffering at any cost.

autotelic   |2009-09-10 14:31:38 'Ringleader of The Tormentors", that's the name of one of his paintings........... Here's a famous KM quote, "I want a woman that knows what it means to be a real woman. I can't stand anything that smells like feminism."

DLH   |2009-09-10 14:38:47 Autotelic said: "Well, I don't think we should let the inadvertent enablers off the hook more than once." Then you should have been hung for your crimes a long time ago.

KM  - inspired   |2009-09-10 14:39:56 Wow! That's a great set of projections there Anna , I'm planning to incorporate a lot of this emotional fallout and uncopyrighted stuff in my new book, 'Unstable Jeans' .

autotelic  - I saw the light   |2009-09-10 14:44:15 What can I say? I finally had sex with the devil.

autotelic   |2009-09-10 14:53:12 Some of us here can't believe that KM became famous, not for his prolific painting, but for how he intentionally spells every word in the dictionary wrong. It should come as no surprise that when he first came on the scene he got kicked off the AMG outsider art board. She's not a fan either. He still can't get a write up in Raw Vision, sounds political to me.

Anonymous   |2009-09-10 14:59:19 Here's another famous KM quote, "I have no original ideas of of my own, I get my ideas from others, and somehow I'm the lucky son of a bitch that always gets credit for it." Someone said: "KM's truck was vandalised.... Wow! after wooing Santa Fe's chattering classes he's finally getting the attention he deserves from the street."

TMfocus  - meditate for change   |2009-09-10 15:19:32 "I have a real need to guilt people out for abandoning me the same way that my father did." Great! So you constantly restage the primal abandonment scene hoping that guilting out others - not simply men - in his place will somehow resolve it. Have you ever seen the film 'The Double Life of Veronique?'

KM  - THE POLITICS OF DEPENDENCY   |2009-09-10 15:21:14 What can I say to you guys ?, the ability to network and manage a stable artistic persona effectively obviously doesn't ship with the Borderline skillset and I'm torn between saintly empathy and rolling about on the floor fucking laughing. Yay, keep coming with the vision thing I need the stimulation...

autotelic  - famous last words   |2009-09-10 15:25:42 I don't think you understand, I finally had sex with the devil. I am now able to articulate all the reasons why I have acted out destructive romance addiction scripts my entire life. And having sex with the devil somehow brought all this to light. I am 100% dedicated to my own recovery. There won't be any more passionate magical affairs, and if I'm not cut out for a long term relationship, I'll just remain celibate.

autotelic   |2009-09-10 15:33:50 TM said: "Great! So you constantly restage the primal abandonment scene hoping that guilting out others - not simply men - in his place will somehow resolve it." Not anymore, not anymore, no fucking way! I have surrendered to the first step, and I have no one other than the devil to thank for it, he was of great assistance to me, he was a vehicle that manifested in order to help me actualize my developmental tasks, and it was his own rabid denial, that really helped to bring things into focus.

MarinCountyHealer   |2009-09-10 16:00:46 I'm not familiar with the KM's work but we cancelled our 'Raw Vision' subscription for the reception area after one of our most insightful members , an artist herself, referred to it during one group therapy session as a 'bloated and pretentious lifestyle rag glorifying faked paw prints'. It hasn't been missed. The real internal life struggle for me as a Christian is between Confession and Forgiveness , I often contemplate the Sacred Heart to remind myself of the need to be exposed and open to suffering , pain and sacrifice and of course to remember the central tennet of my Faith, the all absorbing role of forgiveness . There is a delicate balance to be struck . Always.

Angie   |2009-09-10 15:55:33 No offence intended to those of a Christian disposition but I'm all for giving the Devil his due.

DLH  - the 40 year old virgin   |2009-09-10 17:15:22 What Autotelic fails to mention is that I'm the first person that she's had a real full-on sexual relationship with, that may be why she refers to me as the devil. If she had received proper attention when she was a child, she wouldn't have to write a blog book about her experience with me. It didn't work out, and now she finally knows what it feels like to have sex, that's life. She should have learned about the birds and bees when she was 20, not 40.

Frank   |2009-09-10 17:47:29 DHL, OK, you got that out of the way, the inattention autotelic's father showered on her as a kid drives her to keep searching for it in an alien sexualised world of brokenness but whats the story behind your own inadequacy and compulsive existential trajectory ? Care to share?

autotelic   |2009-09-11 01:40:54 He uses every bit of his energy to uphold the mask of sanity. His recognizes that we all have threads of desperation and insanity running through us, but his whole trip is about concealing it all costs. He's the first guy I ever met that believed he was just a normal guy, and that's why this was such an eye opening experience for me.

Anonymous   |2009-09-11 01:48:31 maybe he was just a normal guy that thought you would be capable of having a normal drama free relationship? Normal people generally don't attach any special meaning to sex.

autotelic   |2009-09-11 01:56:19 It was just a very unsettling experience, I had a sexual relationship with the wrong person.

Sarah   |2009-09-11 02:13:02 If you don't have the will to get professional help, at least go to the library and get your hands on every book written about love addiction.

autotelic   |2009-09-11 02:36:28 I'm having an anxiety attack, I paid such a high price for indulging in so much pleasure. I'm on my own and more alone than ever, and I don't expect the normal guy to understand what's going on within my mindscape. The normal guy freaks the fuck out of me, cause he really is a sociopath. I don't say that with any kind of bitterness, he just isn't plagued with the curse of lifelong sensitivity. He was able to dust his hands off, with the attitude, win some/lose some/that's life/better luck next time. But, any kind of break up triggers the memory of childhood abandonment for me. And even though I am able to recognize the relationship for what it was: sexual attachment, it's still pretty overwhelming to process, it's just intense to mix up molecules with people in "that kind" of fashion.

Dr Spock   |2009-09-11 02:48:30 Normal is an emotional state one has to be socialised into but I would also sum up normal as a state of psychological violence to those who cant cut it.

TMfocus  - meditate for change   |2009-09-11 03:01:49 Childhood developmental problems are tough whether caused through losing out in the genetic lottery , bad parenting or worse but society has the absolute right to impose ordinariness on individuals and expect it from them, its the social glue that holds individuals, families and society together and yes, I am sure to an outsider ordinariness is barbaric and and perhaps , objectively , it is a shared form of psychopathic behaviour , I couldn't possibly say, but it is necessary and we should be courageous enough to turn our backs on those who dont fit in.

autotelic   |2009-09-11 03:06:42 it's one thing to think about a normal guy with a normal agenda, but everything really comes to light when you have sex with the guy!!!! Am I supposed to laugh, cry, avoid eye contact at the gym? The whole situation is mind-blowingly ridiculous. Anyway David, I can't believe I actually had sex with you.

Anonymous   |2009-09-11 03:17:35 Jesus TM! Thanks for making me laugh! You don't know how much I appreciate it right about now. This is very funny: "society has the absolute right to impose ordinariness on individuals and expect it from them" Sometimes you sound just like David. He very much believed that we have a duty to surrender to the ordinary, and I agree, if the ordinary is all about enjoying the simple pleasures, a good meal, book, movie, play, walking my dog, going for a hike, rollerblading, appreciating nature, etc. But when the ordinary means just having sex without communication and hard core intimacy, then no I don't want to surrender to the ordinary, and I suspect by ordinary, you're talking about rules of language, and what is and isn't permissable to talk about, that's a form of oppression, or to quote Spock, a form of psychological violence.

Angie   |2009-09-11 03:35:22 Hey autotelic , I also have awful anxiety attacks that just stop me dead and , well, you know my history but deep separation or abandonment and rejection issues , whatever and whenever their initial cause , are so often implicated in or triggers for hyper anxiety . You have to be really intimate with those triggers to have any chance to share other kinds of intimacy. Sending you a hug from NY.

Jillian  - the importance of community   |2009-09-11 03:37:44 This website IS VERY useful in helping to alleviate anxiety when all the others turn their backs on me because I don't fit in. It's like, there's no possible way I can fuck up here, even when Vinny tries to "disqualify" something I say! I wonder, is it courage or weakness when others run away from this kind of material? TM used the word courage. Why would it require courage for him to turn his back on us? What is he really saying?

TMfocus  - meditate for change   |2009-09-11 03:41:58 Oh Poppycock! The pair of you just lack moral fibre! Regular meditation - say 20 minutes a day - strengthens the mind but Borderlines probably have neurological reasons why they can't benefit from deep meditative practice or even apply themselves with any degree of moral stamina. Dont shoot the messenger.

Jillian   |2009-09-11 04:55:37 TM, it doesn't matter much if our meditation practice is neurogically impaired, we're not really romantics, and most everyone here has discovered that we wasted a lot of time searching for that last great fuck.

Julian VZ   |2009-09-11 09:20:07 catholism, femism, neurogically... Are you guys stealing misspelled words from KM?

admin   |2009-09-11 09:24:49 Sorry , I managed to load the Czech spellchecker by mistake, I'm working on it.

Frank   |2009-09-11 09:29:04 ....most everyone here has discovered that we wasted a lot of time searching for that last great fuck? hey c'mon Jillian name names..who's holding out hope here, we need to know!

Julian VZ   |2009-09-11 09:34:04 I trust you're getting something from the process? Thanks for sharing. This is a really fucking cool website. I still dig what you have to say. peace JVZ PS: Everyone's scared

TMfocus  - meditate for change   |2009-09-11 09:35:30 I'm hearing through a reliable source that someone's working on a video to raise awareness of BPD and challenge the stigma that comes with the diagnosis. What next? A Be Kind to A Borderline National Holiday? Whatever happened to the term 'Morally Challenged'.

Frank   |2009-09-11 09:40:29 TM, Learn to challenge your own smug middle class morality you conceited motherfucker.

Julian VZ   |2009-09-11 09:44:05 Hey Autotelic, we all end up having sex with the wrong person sooner or later, it happens to everyone.

admin  - meditate on this   |2009-09-11 09:50:43 TM, The only reason you keep saying that we're morally challenged is because we hold ethical behavior in such high regard. Hypocrisy is the most immoral quality in man.

Angie   |2009-09-11 09:55:15 The fem and stud-bots should reduce the risk of that happening in future but until then we're kinda stuck with having sex with members of our own species .

Frank   |2009-09-11 09:58:59 I've fucking never known a hypocrite who lived uo to his own standards.

TMfocus  - meditate for change   |2009-09-11 15:48:44 Oh No. Now Julian VZ has defected to the Borderline camp! I have no time for those who fuck people of the wrong sex. They are usually treacherous and a waste of genetic material.

Saul  - re Borderline Movie   |2009-09-11 16:03:37 I read in the online disability media a while back that some production company out of Boston was auditioning for a series of ' Being Borderline is No Crime! ' anti stigma movies but the blurb said they  were also going to be using a big name BPD a well , forget who it was now , someone like Cher or that guy with the high voice from the Bee Gees.  I'm really hoping the public facing campaign changes attitudes as I'm a Critical Systems  Manager with Air Traffic Control in the South West and I'm really tired of having to tell my Employer and Co-Workers that I have a Bi-Polar diagnosis just to be accepted as a equal in the workplace. I'm so worried about losing my job that I'm taking Abilify in front of other managers at times to help conceal my BPD diagnosis and that shit's toxic plays havoc with my eyesight and I've fallen asleep at my console a couple of times. I'm dreaming of the day that I can come out as a Borderline.

MarinCountyHealer   |2009-09-11 16:02:24 I sincerely hope the films touch on some of the complex relationship and other interpersonal stuff you guys have so courageously shared here. I'll certainly be doing all I can to raise awareness that Being Borderline is a Dynamic not just a Diagnosis!

Anonymous  - Through The Glass Darkly   |2009-09-11 16:26:30 What if, at the very second of entrance into the next bardo state, you suddenly realize that you were wrong for always seeing the worst in others? It must be so difficult to go through life always overlooking the innate goodness of mankind.

autotelic   |2009-09-11 16:40:56 the only way to remain morally ethical is to constantly be aware of the driving forces that always bring out the worst in others. Don't give me a lecture about magical thinking.

Frank   |2009-09-11 16:51:14 As a Socialist I've never doubted the innate goodness of my fellow human beings what I doubt is whether we can organize society around it and live to our full human potential.

Anonymous  - Through The Glass Darkly   |2009-09-11 16:53:31 Autotelic said: "the only way to remain morally ethical is to constantly be aware of the driving forces that always bring out the worst in others." You must be so very weary, I hope you have some pets that you find worthy of love and compassion.

Angie  - Are Other People Hell   |2009-09-11 17:15:01 I wonder if that guy raised an important question about our perceptions of the nature of others on the individual level that got lost in the aggregate view. Do I always see the worst in others? Fuck No, not always but that book 'Moral Man , Immoral Society ' really drills down into the contradictions of how we live and treat others in our families , groups , classes or whatever. I often relate to my clients as human beings I mean really relate and incredibly so at times as I am so well placed to see their human frailty and then I'll get with the other girls and hear myself ripping people I just cried over apart o bond with the baseness in them. I know I really fucking struggle to tap into my innate goodness but like Frank I have never once doubted its there in all of us.

TMfocus  - meditate for change   |2009-09-11 17:51:58 I'm sorry this is just too much now! Look, Hobbes captured the problem so succinctly I'll restate it here ' Life is nasty , brutish and short !' and that holds for all life not just human life and sadly this basic existential situation isn't changed one jot by Hippies taking a fluffy sentimental anthropomorphic view of the motivations of their pets. Civilized society exists and can only exist and function through fear of the hangman or the modern equivalent as by force alone do we restrain the war of all against all and the most brutish bloody anarchy.

Angie   |2009-09-11 18:08:13 Hey TM I bet you live in a fancy gated community, the architectural lifestyle equivalent of living with your head up your ass! I dont know about your philosophical Hobbit but I've lived the wrong side of the tracks most of my life and the view from here is that yeah, life is fucking nasty brutish and short a lot of the time but it can also be ordered more fairly to support being rather than just having and , oh yeah , it can also be playful and fun.

Anonymous  - Through The Glass Darkly   |2009-09-11 18:24:05 If you're always living in state of contradiction, aren't you also living a life of hypocrisy? Autotelic, what would happen if you sent light, compassion, gratitude, and forgiveness, to all those men that you made the mistake of kissing? Think about it.

Angie   |2009-09-11 18:30:49 Every time I reach out like that to the guys in my past they interpret it as an invite to cheat on their wives and hook up again for an inconsequential fuck.

MarinCountyHealer  - spiritual botox   |2009-09-11 18:49:13 Well I absolutely go with humanely reaching out and that constant need to move towards the light , of course I do but life is always going to be a trade , it just is, and prissy and old fashioned in my Christian ways I may be but boy I also have unmet needs in various areas of my life and I'll hold my hands up , I'm not averse to viewing the odd shot of botox as a life affirming spiritual fix.

Angie   |2009-09-11 21:30:47 And another thing, Through the Glass Darkly assumes we can even remember the men and/or women I guess we have mistakenly kissed but anyway he got me thinking about the theory of ' Consequential Friends ' or rather a variant of it as I'm now busy drawing up a list of 'inconsequential fucks' but I'm already down to vague physical descriptions , events and placenames as the real names stumped  me before I had even hit double figures.

autotelic   |2009-09-12 04:25:42 Julian, You think this is a really cool website, full of "typical autotelic bullshit" ???? You're in the company of other borderlines, I understand. Anyway, you now have a documented mood swing here, it can be a useful tool, if you're trying to discern how you REALLY feel about the things that you say. Through The Glass Darkly brought up some very compelling points, but maybe that's because I just started reading 'How God Changes Your Brain' I've got a love/hate relationship with both the darkness and the light.

autotelic   |2009-09-12 04:29:27 Marin: I love botox! I spend 750 dollars a year, and when you look at my face you can't tell that I spent the last 40 years living in fear, despair, or anger. Do it!

Sarah  - Never Tell Anyone You're A Borderline   |2009-09-12 05:24:52 Saul said: "I'm really tired of having to tell my Employer and Co-Workers that I have a Bi-Polar diagnosis just to be accepted as a equal in the workplace. I'm so worried about losing my job that I'm taking Abilify in front of other managers at times to help conceal my BPD diagnosis" Bipolar disorder is an Axis 1 diagnosis, it's medical, it can be treated, it's far more acceptable to be bipolar than it is to admit that you have BPD, which is said to be untreatable and incurable. That's why it's called a personality disorder. Most therapists don't enjoy working with borderlines, and I think that psychiatrists make a mistake when they prescribe Abilify to people that have BPD. Have you ever met a borderline that wanted to take Lithium? I think Not!

Vinny   |2009-09-12 06:22:14 TM said: "Hobbes captured the problem so succinctly I'll restate it here ' Life is nasty , brutish and short !' and that holds for all life not just human life and sadly this basic existential situation isn't changed one jot by Hippies taking a fluffy sentimental anthropomorphic view of the motivations of their pets. Civilized society exists and can only exist and function through fear of the hangman or the modern equivalent as by force alone do we restrain the war of all against all and the most brutish bloody anarchy." This is really good writing, but there aren't any hippies on this board, they all got kicked off.

autotelic   |2009-09-12 15:21:34 sending light and love to all those that acted out the primal abandonment scene with me, we put ourselves through it over and over again to see if we can change the ending. Judge them not harshly, for they are mortal too.

Anonymous  - Through The Glass Darkly   |2009-09-12 19:11:12 Perhaps your former lovers weren't capable of communicating on a deep, meaningful level, but maybe, they were more advanced than you in the most important area, could it be that they weren't attached to outcomes?

autotelic   |2009-09-13 04:02:31 outcomes? I enjoyed watching my lover eat, listening to my lover eat, and having sex with him, maybe that was a pretty good outcome after all.

Jillian   |2009-09-13 04:09:58 I've been wanting to tell you something, but you were grieving, and I didn't want to come across as insensitive or inappropriate. I don't think it's a good idea to get too carried away with all this talk about addiction, there's nothing wrong with having a sensual relationship every once in a while....if you're prepared to process the realization that it will come to an end.

autotelic   |2009-09-13 04:33:31 Jillian, you're disabling me from seeking help, don't I need treatment to curb this fascination I have with watching others shovel food into their mouths?

Jillian   |2009-09-13 04:43:50 no, but you better seek treatment if you experience uber terrific orgasms.

Vinny   |2009-09-13 05:01:34 You better seek treatment if you spend most of your time wondering when you'll have your next orgasm in the presence of another person. Is this what addiction really looks like? Say it ain't so.

autotelic  - Just one fix   |2009-09-13 05:19:23 It's a delicate question Vinny. I just want to know if I'm supposed to feel bad about not knowing how to maintain a relationship after the honeymoon phase is over. I notice that when we start talking about the seduction and the possibility of new encounters, 'the addict in me' starts to feel hope, mixed with excitement, it's probably not a good sign. But theN again, we're all filled with so much desire, wtf do we do with it?

Anonymous  - Through The Glass Darkly   |2009-09-13 05:32:06 Lose your attachment to outcomes, and believe that you have a right to enjoy your sexuality in such a way that it will feel spiritual, meaningful, and profound, without being addictive. It's still possible to bargain with the universe.

MarinCountyHealer   |2009-09-13 06:55:50 I'm not sure I like where this is going guys. You sound like dry alcoholics that are determined to have a drink.

Anonymous  - call in the experts   |2009-09-13 07:00:46 Do commitmentphobes have the right to enjoy their sexuality? Is it possible to experience incredible intimacy in a short term relationship? And how do we know if we're acting out an addiction, or really connecting in a healthy way?

Spock   |2009-09-13 07:07:40 Stop with the contradictions and double standards, throw your rationalizations away, and go get laid. btw, NO ONE qualifies as marriage material.

Jillian   |2009-09-13 07:09:21 Back to the fucking drawing board.

Anonymous   |2009-09-13 07:15:33 But what about all the opposing forces that say if we choose both roads we end up on no road? I just want to get laid.

Julian   |2009-09-13 07:18:18 sustainability is overrated

Shoulder Voices   |2009-09-13 16:28:46 "Do commitmentphobes have the right to enjoy their sexuality?" It's a relative question, it all depends on who you ask. We're animals, the human brain was never intended to evolve to such an extent that this question should even be asked. I don't know what's worse, Catholic guilt, or 12 step recovery programs.

Saint Pope   |2009-09-13 17:05:59 Shoulder Voices, animals are able to intuitvely grasp that which the devolved human brain overlooks: commitment ensures survival, sexual success, and validation from the community at large. Some of the members on this board would probably be clubbed to death or left behind to starve due to their unwillingness to participate in the basic laws of nature. It's crass and lazy to say that sustainability is overrated.

Jillian   |2009-09-13 17:15:09 Sharing mutual satisfying orgasms with another is sexual success for me.

Saint Pope   |2009-09-13 17:26:49 Great Jillian, but are you a tribe member that got left behind? Do you wake up hungry, and in in hunt mode day after day wondering where the resources are for you to achieve sexual success? People that are willing to make sacrifices (like committing to a relationship) generally have access to reliable-steady-ongoing sex.

autotelic   |2009-09-13 17:45:36 Can someone here that did real well in the genetic lottery help me design my next craigslist ad? I want to achieve sexual success too.

KM   |2009-09-13 18:00:30 Autotelic, if you want to achieve sexual success, you might have to stop talking altogether.

autotelic   |2009-09-13 18:27:25 KM said: "I want a woman that knows what it means to be a real woman. I don't like anything that smells like feminism." Sexual success for me means that I get to keep my voice box. You might have a goddess following in Santa Fe, but I'm not one of your groupies. I'd never find myself in bed with a guy like you. You're not exactly John Lennon.

KM   |2009-09-13 19:31:56 Autotelic said: "I notice that when we start talking about the seduction and the possibility of new encounters, 'the addict in me' starts to feel hope, mixed with excitement, it's probably not a good sign." UR bad news sister, real bad news.

TM focus  - meditate for change   |2009-09-13 19:52:49 I concur, Autotelic is a troublemaker, and if you haven't noticed, those that agree with her act like pretty bad apples too, there's something so unsavory about this whole website, these people haven't got a clue. Noble savages? Not even close. Only in their narcissistic dreams.

Anna   |2009-09-14 02:57:28 TM, If Heaven exists I'm sure it'll be a lot more accommodating towards virtuous sinners like autotelic and others on this site than those , like you, who have turned virtue into a vice.

Guess Who.   |2009-09-14 04:30:22 Damn! I subscribed to Lifeisbrutallyunfair thinking the unsavoury content was just a product of the 'online disinhibition effect'! WTF is going on?

autotelic  - lame name game   |2009-09-14 04:58:24 TM said: "Autotelic is a troublemaker, and if you haven't noticed, those that agree with her act like pretty bad apples too," And I thought I was the worst writer on here! Bad apples huh?

autotelic  - when virtue becomes a vice   |2009-09-14 15:23:11 Good morning TM, What does it say, when people don't dare laugh at things that aren't supposed to be funny? Can we even imagine, would we even want to imagine, what a day in the life looks like for them? [When virtue becomes vice.]

Dr Spock   |2009-09-14 15:27:12 And how do we know if we're acting out an addiction, or really connecting in a healthy way? With life being so biologically driven and habitual who's to say what we're addicted to? As for health , lack of 'connectedness' is up there with cigarette smoking as a way of taking years off one's life. Seems being a loner in life is less adaptive than being a whore or saint.

TMfocus  - meditate for change   |2009-09-14 16:11:12 It really depends what you want in life autotelic, a sordid life of reckless amusement or consistency or the last laugh. I'm smug enough to know my lifestyle will afford me the latter .

Anna   |2009-09-14 15:56:55 TM, Your conceited and judgmental presumptions never fail to raise a laugh here and I bet the immortals howl and split their sides over your spiritual smugness as well.

Anonymous  - Through The Glass Darkly   |2009-09-14 16:09:04 From what I've seen, people that are always laughing at things that aren't supposed to be funny, hold a series of lifelong grudges.

Jillian  - re: lifelong grudges   |2009-09-14 16:11:20 you mean like Adam Sandler in 'Funny People' ? ? ?

autotelic   |2009-09-14 16:18:38 well you know, the best lyrics ever penned were by Morrissey: 'Beware, I bear more grudges than lonely high court judges'

Frank   |2009-09-14 16:20:23 Or Angela's Ashes.... I heard that book was mostly bulshit and the Irish American author who depicted a childhood of abject poverty had a fairly stable middle class upbringing.

KM  - no hope for the stubborn   |2009-09-14 16:31:53 Thanks for the inspiration, in my next painting, the quintessential saint of pride gets what she deserves, some old fashioned Catholic bashings.

Bruno  - Auto De Fe   |2009-09-14 17:13:28 @KM Start making penance for your own prideful ways you fucking jerk as sooner or later you're going to be the Sanctamonious City's newest Burning Man when the flames of class consciousness rise up from that pile of self righteous shite you have produced and roast your pampered cool ass.

Angie   |2009-09-14 18:53:00 Fuck off TM and KM! Devotion is enough to make most things Sacred , even inadvertently fucking up relationships if one lives and acts in Good Faith. TM and KM are the true agents of the Diabolical and Profane here , they're the real Unholy Whores as everything they do is fucking Fake!

ThriftstoreWorker   |2009-09-14 17:41:06 Fuck, I'm really struggling to follow the arguments now, help me out here as I'm just a simple gal, I was kinda hoping that hovering around the periphery of the debate would be a sure way of getting laid. Did I gatecrash the wrong gig?

D   |2009-09-15 02:34:28 How the fuck do you consciously reconcile stone age emotions with the expectations of 21st century relationships and wider modern life?

autotelic  - Poseur's Paradise   |2009-09-15 02:40:04 It's so easy to take cheap shots at KM, I'll never understand why every woman in Santa Fe wants to bang him, he just makes my skin crawl. TM: I prefer a sordid life of reckless amusement. I wasn't designed for those more serious, thankless roles.

Anonymous  - Through The Glass Darkly   |2009-09-15 04:18:03 You sounded pretty serious when that guy dumped you.

Autotelic  - stop walking on eggshells   |2009-09-15 05:05:34 We foolishly confused sex with love, I needed a little time to process the absurdity of it all, and it was only after he dumped me that I stopped feeling so suicidal and hopeless. D was right when he said: "How the fuck do you consciously reconcile stone age emotions with the expectations of 21st century relationships and wider modern life?"

Vinny  - Of Human Bondage   |2009-09-15 05:18:28 You don't need a 12 step program to figure this stuff out.

TMfocus  - meditate for change   |2009-09-15 05:43:41 This site has become a tyranny of the amoral that reduces all discussions of love and sex to a series of expletives and animal gruntings.

Angie   |2009-09-15 06:51:34 You're such a predictable fucking bore TM autotelic simply kick started a great discussion on how much we're tyranised by sex and love.

autotelic   |2009-09-15 15:59:51 To all the borderlines on this site: Get your hands on a copy of 'The Angry Heart'.........The author received many pissed off letters from parents that were aghast about being held somewhat responsible for the monstrous children that they created.

autotelic   |2009-09-15 16:14:08 To all The Naysayers, new and old: I'm no longer paranoid or self-conscious about anything that I say, and I no longer go back and delete any of my comments. Why? Because, I no longer have doubts about who's sane and who isn't. Yes, I'm sane, incredibly sane.

Anonymous  - Through The Glass Darkly   |2009-09-16 01:25:14 Do borderlines ever get used to the anger and emptiness? Did you know that it's possible to forgive everyone their trespasses without ever having anything to do with them again? ....You can just quietly work this out in your heart, and no one will ever have to know.

TM Focus  - Meditate For Change   |2009-09-16 02:13:15 So does the new book you're reading propose that we educate pre-schoolers about BPD? Isn't BPD just another state of ego?

Scott R.   |2009-09-16 02:21:17 Are borderlines sensitive to the smells of other people, or is that more of a trait found in schizophrenics?

Sarah   |2009-09-16 03:16:19 TM, The seeds of BPD germinate within the womb, a developing fetus can tell if the pregnancy was a horrible mistake. I'm kidding/I'm not kidding. Actually, some therapists believe this is true.

MarinCountyHealer   |2009-09-16 04:43:36 I read 'The Angry Heart', and I know how difficult it is to struggle with an ailment that could have been avoided, if our parents had been conscious, and present caregivers. We were born in the wrong era!

Jillian   |2009-09-16 05:11:53 BPD is like an STD. All bets for intimacy are off.

Frigg   |2009-09-16 14:20:40 Unless you dont tell.....

autotelic   |2009-09-16 15:12:00 I've got a post botox headache, and am still reeling from another night of bad dreams, one of the side effects of taking anti depressants is all the bad dreams, everything that is "thought about" during the day is "felt" during sleep. Every night, it's guaranteed that I will have confrontational dreams, involving stand offs, mutual accusations, and painful dialogue with others. It's always the same: "You're more fucked up than I am." "No way! You're more fucked up than I am!"

Lilith   |2009-09-16 15:21:50 We're all fucking fucked up but the really fucked up just aren't aware of this. I don't know what to do about the dreams.

autotelic   |2009-09-16 15:52:57 That's exactly what my dreams look like. I'm confronted with people from my past that refuse to admit how fucked up they are, and everyone that I deal with in my dreams has really shitty communications skills. I get a whopping dose of the god awful stench of fear, denial, hypocrisy, and false pride emanating from others when I dream. So yeah, you could say that borderlines are sensitive to the smells of other people.

Lillith   |2009-09-16 23:50:39 Even if our noses weren't that finely attuned other people are sensitive to the smell of Borderlines anyway. Some are even initially attracted to the sharp fragrance of the dangerously different but it always ends up with the same excuses , blame games and pungent whiff of tragic finality. "I thought I could cope with you but...."

Spock   |2009-09-16 23:52:28 Could be straight Right Brain - Left Brain ping pong. Try to introduce another voice into your dreams to mediate.