another crisis of faith up at the federal retreat
_POSTED_BY admin   
Tuesday, 18 August 2009
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RetreatPete  - this is the time   |2009-08-19 12:01:43
are you listening at the back of the class lynette?
this is really
important
we're lacking a contribution here!
its a question of engagement.

watching the dust from your hand
spiral in the sunlight will only get you so
far
do you really want people to only notice you out of the corner of their
eye?
dont you want to be seen?
do you want your life to pass in an
instant?
are you listening at the back there lynette?
do i have your
attention?
MarinCountyHealer  - re: this is the time   |2009-08-19 12:08:02
We need more MRI scans and therapeutic interventions in the classroom.
Buzz Lightyear   |2009-08-21 02:26:57
Bulshit! We just need a more effective breeding program to filter out the
fucking psychos!
autotelic   |2009-08-20 03:29:22
Does she have a t-shirt that says
'World's Greatest Lover'?

We all know
that borderlines are the world's greatest lovers.........for about 4 weeks, and
then boo hoo, we become unmanageable. When will our lovers realize that deep
down inside, everyone's borderline!
Buzz Lightyear  - re:World's Greatest Lover   |2009-08-20 12:55:08
Everyone's borderline? Jesus!.. if the instability of you Borderline types
doesnt kill me your taking yourselves so fucking seriously will!
MarinCountyHealer  - No Platform for Haters   |2009-08-21 02:28:05
Please! Can't we discuss the BPD diagnosis without stigmatising people?
Dr Spock  - BPD as Ethical Hedonism on Meth   |2009-08-21 02:45:12
Seems to me Borderlines just want every friggin moment to be incredibly intense.
MarinCountyHealer  - Allow Jesus into Your Disorder   |2009-08-21 02:44:26
Unfortunately borderlines make great impulse spenders, gamblers and self
harmers too but using BPD behaviours to stigmatise borderlines just
perpetuates the invalidating environment they're already trapped in. We're
running a Christian Borderline Workshop at the Marin Holy Cross coastal retreat
from September 12th through 19th. There are still a few places. If you cant
share a room bring a tent. No couples or pets. Contact me for further details
and pricing.
autotelic   |2009-08-21 05:15:09
hey marin: let me run the workshop, i do hope you'll be discussing the 13th
step? jesus is the 13th step right? to fill all those massive holes? maybe
you need to talk about how some people taking the workshop will seek out love
from other attending members if jesus doesn't deliver the thrill ride that some
of us are used to.

I DEfinitely get where you're coming from and where you're
going with this. In fact I have a new personal ad, and i make it pretty clear
that i'm looking for a mind blowing religious experience......hidden within the
convoluted veil of compassion, nurturing and validation.
autotelic  - what to do about all the holes?   |2009-08-21 05:46:37
borderlines encompass broken promises and always the need for more, most
anthropoligists will tell you that we weren't designed to adapt to this kind of
world......and because of that many of us are searchers and addicts.

i'll be
the first to admit that the intensity of falling in love is a severe form of
mental illness.

Borderline behavior is a form of survival adaptation, and my
days of feeling bad about it are long gone.

and since i no lnger feel bad
about it, i'm more willing to negotiate with and surrender to the ordinary,
knowing full well that I'll always be a borderline
autotelic   |2009-08-21 05:49:04
so really, the key is to not be devastated about broken promises, it's classic
addict behavior
MarinCountyHealer  - broken promises & sacred vows   |2009-08-21 13:12:37
Well I can assure you that the only unbroken promise is that of Eternal Life
through belief in our Lord and Saviour Jesus Crist. As for Borderline being an
adaption for human survival, we dont have a lot of time for biological
determinism at Holy Cross , we lean more towards free will and the autonomy of
the spirit but we'd sure love to have you help out with the BPD camp next month.
We have no vacancies for a workshop leader at the moment though as my husband
and I present the workshop and we've long had an understanding that working
apart with members of the opposite sex is a no-no. It's one less temptation to
worry about. We'll be in touch.
ThePleasantvilleKid  - More Info Please   |2009-08-21 13:29:31
Hi Marin,

I'm very interested in the September 09 Borderline retreat. Do you
offer intensive dialectical behavior therapy and, if yes, could you stretch to
a student discount or some kind of financing arrangement until I get back on my
feet?
MarinCountyHealer   |2009-08-21 13:54:44
No Kid we dont offer DBT , we're a legit Christian practice not a New Age
Bhuddist hangout!
autotelic  - looking for mr. goodbar   |2009-08-21 15:37:49
you're not going to believe it! I found a 'world's greatest lover' t-shirt
online!
Can you bend a little Marin? And let me wear it while I stand in front
of your audience and tell my story? Please, please, please, pretty please?
admin0  - looking for mr. goodbar   |2009-08-22 05:24:35
Hey autotelic, can we have a pic of you in that 'Worlds Greatest Lover' t-shirt
for the site? Please!!!! and Marin if you let autotelic run with the
confessional slot at your next WPD gig we'll come to some arrangement for
pushing your retreat as we have a number of uptight academics regularly dropping
by in search of spiritual guidance.
WalterthePenniless   |2009-08-22 05:21:51
Whichever way you cut it the future looks pretty Borderline!
Frank  - re: looking for mr. goodbar   |2009-08-22 15:08:19
For what its worth, none of the borderline chicks I know has ever eked out a
romantic physical relationship to anything near four weeks.
MarinCountyHealer   |2009-08-22 15:55:38
Sure autotelic you can wear the t-shirt if it helps , we're flexible here but
we'd just like to see some emphasis on the role of the Suffering Christ in
your newfound strength to self manage your lifelong personality disorder. I've
also been talking to a Bay Area Christian publisher about your recovery path.
She wants to hook up with you to discuss a writing project at some point.
autotelic  - i come bearing broken promises   |2009-08-22 15:56:02
ha! it's so funny, every time I have a love affair, the guy will say, "now
you can write that book about how you overcame your personality disorder through
a long term relationship, it will be on the NYT'S Bestseller list", and then
when the affair ends, they realize, a borderline is a borderline is a
borderline.
Dr Spock  - re: - i come bearing broken promises   |2009-08-22 17:30:31
borderlines dont write books they pen aphorisms.
autotelic   |2009-08-22 19:13:23
so true spock, but lately many people have been telling me that it is far better
to love for a short amount of time, giving all that you've got, than (then) to
be in a long term relationship that was never worth a shit.

Writing a book
infers stability, penning aphorisms implies short term learning experiences
Angie  - Punch Drunk on Life's Intensity   |2009-08-22 20:07:04
I keep stumbling across real gems from fellow Borderline Simone Weil who was
totally chaotic too. Ok,Weil wasn't exactly a heartbreaker but who else could
write such beautifully honest notes to herself as ' Learn to be alone, if
only to be worthy of true friendship'
.

I guess that was her way of
gently saying that beyond the idealised most interpersonal relationships arent
worth a shit.
Buzz Lightyear   |2009-08-22 20:23:32
Adolf Hitler was BPD!
Frank  - famous borderlines   |2009-08-23 00:36:42
Just did a quick web search for Famous Borderlines and beyond AH the only people
listed were Princess Di,Marylin Monroe and Billy Corgan from Smashing
Pumpkins.They have to be fucking kidding right? What about Bill Clinton!
autotelic   |2009-08-23 06:39:32
"beyond the idealised most interpersonal relationships arent
worth a
shit."


yeah well I wonder if that's why Mrs. Marin and her husband have agreed
not to interact with members of the opposite sex at
her workshop?

i'd really love to crash that politically correct
party, and announce brashly that she ain't natural.

Ever notice how
most people need a cell mate to get through life?
autotelic   |2009-08-23 06:57:08
here's a great quote froma guy that recently answered my personal
ad:

"Never having been married is a smart alternative to the ravages of
divorce. And people seem to have the same induced need for children to
complicate their culturally induced prime directive. As far as I'm concerned you
avoided two obstacles to having a realistic relationship and we have that in
common."

....Your turn Marin, Do you have any video footage of your
weekend retreat? Something tells me that you struggle with major control
issues. Is 'Safe' your favorite movie?
Frank  - torn butterflies in a bottle   |2009-08-23 12:35:46
This may seem jaded but the dude who responded to your latest ad comes across as
someone who hasn't yet worked out that borderlines mess up relationships because
we're emotionally unstable rather than intelectually superior to and at a higher
stage of evolution than everyone else.
MarinCountyHealer   |2009-08-23 15:33:21
You misunderstand! My husband and I interact with people of the opposite sex at
Holy Cross all the time!Of course we do.What were you thinking? No, we have an
agreement not to work alone with professionals of the opposite sex as close
working partnerships tend to erode boundaries.

Early on in our marriage at a
time when my husband was drawing a lot of attention for his book 'The Christian
Family ,Sex and Spiritual Wellbeing' we were targetted by a researcher , a
manipulative Jewess from Santa Clara County, who convinced herself that I had
been put on the planet to vet and domesticate my man as prime husband material
so that she could have his babies.Chuck found it incredibly difficult to forgive
himself for surrendering to temptation and the fallout almost cost us our
marriage and our true mission in life ,the retreat business. Ergo the agreement.
I see it as taking the devil out of the equation. Whatever, it works for us and
that's all that matters.

We have a DVD of the 'Taking Christianity to the
Next Stage' workshop, drop me your address and I'll send you a copy.
Angie  - Just Curious   |2009-08-23 13:33:14
Marin ,

Just a question and if you feel its too personal to answer I'll
understand - did you fuck anyone else before you met Chuck or were you like
childhood sweethearts or something?
MarinCountyHealer   |2009-08-23 15:37:20
There is calmness in Christ Angie.
autotelic  - helpline operator   |2009-08-23 16:02:39
Marin: you've got to realize that my delivery is always sardonic, did you read 'the four agreements'? Never take anything
personally, and I suppose that goes for your marriage too. I just think
that maybe you live in a closed universe, I have access to more
epidemoligical (sp)data, when I place a personal ad it's like a
sociological experiment.  I may end up talking to 30 different men in a
2 week period. I often don't meet most of them, but I find out right
away what they're thinking, and what kind of obstacles they face trying to
achieve intimacy.
The problem with workshops is that they aren't
feral enough, and guess what marin, my data has shown that many people feel
as if they have wasted a great deal of time in life saving face, and
they don't want to do it anymore.
Frank   |2009-08-23 19:28:14
The main obstacles I face to achieving intimacy nowadays are purely financial.
MarinCountyHealer  - every second counts   |2009-08-24 00:45:58

autotelic - you're dead right, marriage or at least my marriage is pretty
much a 'closed universe' and yes,I'm a big 'Safe' fan, we have two kids, a
beautiful home bordering on Point Reyes National Seashore, a profound Christian
spiritual engagement with and purpose in life so why wouldnt I be? But for all
your social experimentation , borderline aloofness and reliance on sexual
partner data and psychosocial history the thrust and pace of your quest to
overcome the obstacles to intimacy suggests , to me anyway , that you're still
very much driven by that ticking biological clock. Or is this a misreading?

Dr Spock  - When Borderline's Rule the World   |2009-08-24 14:54:34
Interesting findings from research on Cancer survival rates carried out by
Indiana University. Married people had highest survival rates over 5 and 10 year
periods post diagnosis followed by never marrieds , divorced , widowed
and last those going through separation. So if you are unmarried stay that way
because although getting married could marginally improve your survival rate
it's probably just as likely to result in you being divorced or widowed ,
particularly if you're borderline like me, and having a lower rate of survival
than when you were unwed.

I'm pretty sure the math wont support this exactly
but here are the stats.

Married - 63% survival after five years and 58% at
10-year mark

Never-married - 57% and 52%
Divorced - 52% and 46%
Widowed -
47% and 41%
Separated - 45% and 37%
autotelic   |2009-08-24 16:23:24
no Marin, I lie dormant for a while, and then I break out and "manifest"
an affair, then I lie low for awhile, and go through the cycle all over again,
on the wagon, off the wagon. I'm reading a book called 'Desire-where sex meets
addiction', and the only comforting thing about the book is that I'm not alone
with this cycle.

I recently got a mega amount of responses to my latest ad,
but my conscience intervened, and after communicating with many men, I sent out
a form letter, cc to all that were interested, saying, "if I'm really honest
with myself, I have to confess that I'm not the type of woman than any man
should get deeply involved with."

The book I'm reading points out that
love addiction is the most repulsive of all addictions because there's so much
collateral damage.

I'm just kicking it with my sisters, going to the movies,
staying out of trouble.

The last guy I got involved with introduced me to his
parents, but when we broke up he said, "no doubt, you have a big heart,
you're incredibly bright, charming, intelligent, and loveable, but it obscures
all this other dark stuff." We shared very intense intimacy with one
another, but we'll probably never talk again. I realize that I have never
remained friends with any of my exes, and it's not something I'm proud of.
Healthy individuals are the ones that always say, "I remain friends with all
my exes."
autotelic   |2009-08-24 16:40:46
another thing the book I'm reading points out is that love addiction is the most
socially acceptable of all addictions, for example, if someone takes a shot of
heroin, we don't say, "good for you, I'm so delighted that you have found
what you've been searching for, you look so peaceful, blissed out, elated, and
full of satisfaction." But when we meet a new person, and tell everyone
about our new found happiness and hope, we get the above mentioned reaction, and
yet, the love addict and the heroin addict are operating from the same place.
MarinCountyHealer   |2009-08-25 02:08:01
autotelic - I was totally thrown by your comments, firstly by your ferocious
honesty relating the addictive cyclical nature of your romantic forays and
affairs, which I'll ask you more about later, but also by your clinical
description of love as a form of narcosis as it hit home here with a huge
unexpected rush of painful truth .

It's been a long time since I crawled
away from the wreckage of the love affair of my life but my God I can still
remember how sudden and red bleeding raw and painful the end was and how I
reeled through the aftermath barely conscious.

I'd just graduated, he was an
older man who kept quiet about his marriage until the very second I mentioned
how impossible it would be to live without him.I gushed out the M word. Two
minutes later I was standing barefoot in the road under the towers of Moss
Landing Power Plant listening to the air hum with elecric as the guy I'd
emotionally sacrificed my all to threw my bag and shoes out of the car window
and just drove away back to his wife.

The grief. Jesus, the grief.

It's
not really a grave I want to revisit. Even now. Its too traumatic . I was crying
and shaking as I was thinking through my response to you earlier. Must get a
hold on that . Standing in that road I felt utter heart freezing rejection and
abandonment and the withdrawal symptoms scythed through me for about 18 months
afterwards. I thought they'd never stop. Like an animal I even sought out the
smell of him that's how badly I was hooked. I was obsessed! He had practically
destroyed me but I still wanted him back and saw his ghost everywhere.

I
only had a couple of love affairs ever and that one was the superlative best and
worst. Sheer Heaven , Absolute Fucking Hell. Sorry, but on reflection , almost
25 years of sane reflection ,I suppose the whole thing basically fed on lust.
Maybe I just needed to submit to a father figure. The sex was incredible but,
again with reflection, degrading. A lot of it hasnt been revisited either ,
there's no desire to.

After that, I dont know, my husband was a stable and
driven guy, same age , background , mutual interests and friends ,we just
clicked, it was safety and comfort rather than bedroom pyrotechnics .We got on.
There was very little real desire, I mean raw animal passion but I instinctively
knew he was the One, he was the natural Godsent and welcome antedote to that
dangerous rollercoaster that almost pitched me into the waves of the pacific
ocean. I was that close, that intoxicated, that high and when the euphoric
effect of love wore off , that shockingly and desperately low.

If I had the
chance to do it all again , trust me I just so totally wouldnt.

MarinCountyHealer   |2009-08-25 03:19:40
Even the title of 'Desire where Sex Meets Addiction' fascinates me.

Is it an
academic book or novel? I know some academics refer to all addictions as a form
of intimacy as Holy Cross used to be involved in some University funded Rehab
work in Daly City but it didnt work out. That reformation makes sense when I
think of the raging habits some of the addicts we had here spoke of. Call me
sheltered though but I wasnt aware that people could have raging sex
addictions!

Of course I'd read of Michael Douglas had such a problem but all
the same I had never equated sex and drug addiction in that direct away , I mean
as destructively harmful , I just thought it was another throwaway term of the
pop psychology culture but now through your description of the book and your own
cyclical behaviour of course I can and do. But is the cycle , the on the wagon
off the wagon, process you describe an addiction to sex or romance or both?


What do you mean by intimacy?

What do you mean by love?

And how often
must a new relationship be sought for rate of take up to be considered an
addiction. I do worry about the pathologising of everyday human behaviour. Who
decides what's an addiction and what's the norm?

You are also single. Even as
a committed Christian I have to accept that the family is losing ground fast
and very likely irreversibly so. I'm not sure what sexual appetities are like
within marriages nowadays. My own sexual appetite is hardly rapacious but there
are other ways intimacy can be achieved. I also have a good friend who
confesses to having no sex drive at all but who has an enormous ego and its
embarassing to watch her constantly trying to feed it. I suppose I wont be able
to face her now without thinking her drawing attention to herself is simply
another form of intimacy.

Your last partner's comments trouble me a bit. He
is basically saying that the points you have that he really finds attractive in
a woman obscure your 'dark stuff' but it doesnt explain why women who flawlessly
meet his criteria havent snapped him up. We all have dark stuff, what's
his?

And the form you sent out to the men who contacted you. That perplexes
me a little as well as you say you drafted it in conscience but surely any
simple reading of what you actually wrote and human nature would make it clear
that such self-deprecation would simply function as a come on to certain types
of men , if only as a rescue fantasy? I'm not questioning your integrity , I'm
questioning your withdrawal strategy and the level you've questioned it
too.

Marin
autotelic   |2009-08-25 04:09:00
well I suppose with this particular blog, my addiction, my bpd is being starkly
revealed, notice how my tone has changed drastically as we have continued with
this conversation, it is clearly documented!!!!!!!!!

I think the reason why I
can't remain friends with my exes is because of their denial, not my own. I
can't contact them and say, "notice how the addict in me found the addict in
you, and through our involvement we tried to return to wholeness." They
would just say "what are you talking about? It was a really memorable
positive experience." But what many people won't admit is that they are
indulging in unhealthy love, so when I said that it's better to give all you've
got in a short amount of time, I was really talking about unhealthy love. Look,
I make for a great honeymoon ride, hands down, with borderlines I'm sure you
know about stage 1---the seductress, the temptress, able to give and receive an
incredible amount of love, but it's all about addiction to trying to consume all
those things we never got in our developmental years.

The last guy I was
involved with struggles with OCD, and he binges on food and booze, and then on a
dime, can transform himself back into a hard core vegan. He binged and purged
on me, but he doesn't recognize this. In fact when I met him he was living like
a zen monk, he might have even been undernourished. When he was with me he had
strong cravings for red meat and "plenty of it".

The point is, when
people get into instant romantic relationships they tend to go into a very
sensual trance, trauma and memory are stored in the body, not in the mind, not
in the heart, not in the soul.

And for people that have addictive
personalities, a slow going relationship just can't deliver the fix. It's sick
and unhealthy, but cultivating healthy love tricky business, as addicts we
always start out with good intentions, and we think that our big hearts are
going to create something substantial........but it always turns into a big
mess, and there's always a price to pay for intense passion
henry james  - varieties of religious experience   |2009-08-25 04:13:10
there are 2 types of people in this world:
those who have addictive
personalities,
and those who don't.
autotelic   |2009-08-25 04:27:00
see, in the past when I placed a personal ad, I never admitted to myself that I
was an addict. I just thought that I was in desperate need of connection
(didn't recognize the glaring addict in that rationalization) But after my
recent ad, I realized that I can't keep doing this. I've been lying to myself,
and to others. I'm not coming from a place of wholeness, so I had to fess up to
everyone this time, and say that I can't do this. It's not honest. I can't go
through with it. It's very destructive, and yet it always looks and feels like
love, and that's why it is the most socially acceptable of all
dysfunctions.

And the most amazing thing of all is that people are always
willing to sign up and go along for the ride. It's really really fucked up.
autotelic   |2009-08-25 04:42:32
and yet, if I'm going to be consistent in a mixed messages kind of way, I have
to at least admit to myself that everything I have just said may turn out to be
another broken promise, should I choose to get intimate again.

sometimes the
promises we break the most, are the ones we make to ourselves.

As we go
through life, each new relationship is a little bit different from the last,
(even if broken patterns of relating are acted out over and over again), and in
my experience, each new relationship shows more clearly where the real problem
lies.
Dr Spock   |2009-08-25 04:53:42
I think the first price we pay for intimacy is self-revelation - as here - but
if we're still reeling from loss its kind of hard to glean all thats to be had
from this. It is incredibly hard to discuss addictions and having an addictive
personality because it always feels like the prime need is to avoid engagement
with the real problem by becoming addicted to something else. .
jillian  - Hey Henry!   |2009-08-25 05:11:43
why are you taking credit for the book your brother wrote? Did he ask you to do
it?

I don't get it. Were you just taking the piss?
jillian   |2009-08-25 05:13:48
a big part of recovering from romance addiction is keeping people away from the
internet, that's why I stay away from the house as much as possible.
Dr Spock   |2009-08-25 05:24:32
Jillian,

The internet is as big as your expectations of it. I dont obsess
over or expect that much of it nowadays, but yes , mea culpa it still lights my
brain up at times but i think a loosening of all round detachment helps , the
internet is just another object for addictive personalties to lock on to , its
not the problem, it has no power, in fact its pretty fucking lame.
jillian   |2009-08-25 15:17:15
the internet is definitely pretty lame, from what I hear people with OCD will
watch the same youtube video 100 times in a row, while the romance junkies wait
for new email to arrive, from someone new.
autotelic   |2009-08-25 15:51:54
it's weird Marin, just by admitting that I'm an addict, by admitting that I have
spent my entire life acting out unhealthy love, well, doesn't it mean that I
have finally fessed up the the first step? And once you surrender to the first
step, it pretty much opens up a whole new way of communicating with
people.

For me, it feels kind of groundbreaking, to no longer have any
rationalizations, and the best part of all is that with this admission, others
are willing to admit that they too have been addicts, and that they want to
change unhealthy ways of loving into healthy ways of loving.

An unhealthy
drunk can't really become a healthy drunk, I don't think it's possible to become
a healthy alcoholic, but with love, it's still possible to turn it
around.

I'm sorry if I dissed your workshop, clearly you have at least
mastered the first step! And I definitely salute you for that.
Bjorn  - riding the loop   |2009-08-25 16:14:10
you're on to something Jillian and its not just the net and love as narcosis ,
the whole fucking telecoms and gadget thing is implicated as i just had my hair
cut by a jerk who had his i-phone propped between his chin and his shoulder who
continued to carry on his half of a rambling tedious conversation for as long as
i was there. i see the same thing at the check out. what the fuck are these
people talking about thats so important that they need to walk round disengaged
from their immediate environment in a state of semi-unconsciousness?

how
fucking adaptive is that?

there's definitely an instant gratification
buzzgoing on here, with speed of light reinforcement and digital technology
seems to have played havoc with the normal law of diminishing returns , possibly
because it takes more effort to not mindlessly rely on it.

there is no
disincentive, push that button , feel the serotonin

btw i tried to phone
you last night to say i wasnt phoning you as part of an addiction but phoning to
assure you that i understood the problems of addiction and having an addictive
personality and overcoming the distorted feedback loop this threatens to impose
on almost every human interaction from the mundane to the intimate. i think
you've changed your number. whatever , now you know.
Anonymous   |2009-08-25 16:31:33
wow! up to 90,000 americans could die from swine flu this winter, good thing i'm
not OCD
Kim   |2009-08-25 19:34:25
That's a real death toll that puts our yearly 47,000 road traffic deaths and
33,000 suicides to shame.
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